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[Music]

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hello and welcome to the show I'm Martin

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Willis your host and we have another

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great one for you this evening let's see

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well I consider this place to go if you

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want to escape reality not really

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reality but I guess we'll say escape the

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news at least for a little while here

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well tonight first of all we have a

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guest from his name is Jacques from

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Canada and he posted his childhood UFO

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story on my web site and I should

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mention that I have an anonymous forum

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there on podcast UFO calm that anyone

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can fill out and if they want to remain

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anonymous actually he reached out to me

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so he didn't remain anonymous in

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particular but after I read his story I

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said you know this is really a good

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enough story I actually want to hear him

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talk about it so I'm bringing him on for

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the first few minutes will he's going to

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talk about his sighting then after that

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we have a after Jacques we have our main

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guest David Halpern and he was on the

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show a while ago quite a few years ago I

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think and he was back in 1960s a teenage

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UFO investigator he later became a

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professor of Religious Studies his

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specialty religious traditions of

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heavenly ascent and he was at the

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University of North Carolina Chapel Hill

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and when he retired he started writing

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and back in 2011 he wrote journal of a

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UFO investigator and now he's back to

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talk about his latest book intimate

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alien the hidden story of the UFO while

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I am grateful for all of you who support

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the show and I couldn't do that with I

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couldn't do this without you actually it

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more over at patreon and that link is on

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our website podcast UFO calm

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and our blog this week by Charles Lear

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is called when UFOs were suku voluntary

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and that has to do that was my poor

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attempt at French this has to do with

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early UFO reports an American in France

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and without further ado I'm bringing on

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Jacques

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doing Martin I'm doing well thank you

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and thanks so much for posting now

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you're you're in Canada and can you just

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go ahead and I want to hear your story

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the one you wrote just from your own

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words

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and how old were you and all that and

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where was it look where were you located

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well I was about between 75 and 78 79 so

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I was probably about six seven it's a

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long time ago but it's something that

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I've never forgotten northern somewhat

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Northern Ontario here in Canada just in

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the area of North Bay and we I grew up

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in a kind of rural property we had a

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great spot you would see moose deer bear

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it was all over us and the in took place

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was probably late August and I I

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remember because it was really really

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warm and we didn't have air conditioning

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or all our windows were open was around

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6:30 in the evening and we had somewhat

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of a little tradition after supper we'd

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sit in the living room and watch a show

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it might have been mash or something but

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so we were all sitting in the living

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room and my father was an avid hunter

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and he was one of these people that

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where they couldn't sit still too much

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he always kind of he'd be looking

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outside you'd be looking in the windows

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outside and looking for a wildlife

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there's always wildlife and often when

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we were sitting around watching a show

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my dad would pipe up and say hey guys

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look and we'd all get up took a peek and

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sometimes there was a bear

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sometimes deer and once in a while some

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moose so it wasn't it was common for him

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to pipe up and he'd watch the show but

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he wasn't you know he he wasn't super

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concentrated on it he you know be

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looking at the side this one time he

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says oh my god what is that something of

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that effect and the way he said it it

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was different than you know when it was

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a moose or a deer and I remember jumping

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up and running to the picture window and

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it was a small house so we were in the

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living room and great next my dad was

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sitting in his chair in the corner and

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the picture lender was to his right and

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we were in front of him so we ran up and

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there was my mother and my brother and I

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and I ran to the window looking scanning

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the grounds for a deer or a bear or

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whatever and I didn't see anything and

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I'm looking around and then I just

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noticed that everybody was looking up in

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the sky and I looked up and I I I

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couldn't believe it so just to kind of

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give you perspective of what I saw about

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a hundred feet in front of our house

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there was this great eastern white pine

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a beautiful tree probably was seven feet

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tall and over top of it was a triangle

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it was massive it was black I still get

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goosebumps when I think about it but it

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was so big I remember afterwards talking

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to my dad and he mentioned that the size

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was probably about three quarters to a

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kilometer long which not quite sure what

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that is

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- I only think don't half a mile yeah a

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half a mile and I mean this thing was

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massive when you looked up at the sky

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that's all you saw was it wasn't

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directly over the house but it was

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directly over the pine tree and it just

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went what time a night was I mean was

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there daylight no it was it was about

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6:30 in the evening and you know how in

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August late August you got that nice

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Golden Sun warm there wasn't a breeze it

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was a perfect night the sky was blue no

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clouds whatsoever and this thing is

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hanging there and actually when we spoke

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Martin about having me on the podcast

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I grabbed some markers my daughter's

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markers and I drew something just to

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kind of give you an impression of what

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it looked like and this is what I got

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hmm pretty big hey that's so there's the

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bits not a bad rendering oh it was yeah

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here let me do it let me do this up so

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people can see a little better if there

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you go yeah there you go

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and there's the great eastern white pine

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in front now this doesn't do justice

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bigger than that I just couldn't get it

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up this standard size piece of paper

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sure and so there it is there it is say

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it's up in its it's up in the sky and

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immediately my father walks over to we

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have a front door and it was kind of

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strange because the front door didn't

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lead to anywhere it kind of dropped off

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we were in a raised bungalow and it

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dropped off to the ground which was

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about six feet below my father hadn't

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built the deck at the time and as he was

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walking over to the door he he just he

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mentioned to one of the kids my brother

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and I turned the TV off and we did and

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it was silent he opened the door and he

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kind of stood in the in the doorway kind

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of in the frame looking up and my mom

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kind of talked tucked in right next to

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him instantly my brother and I we we

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you went into these little windows so

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below picture windows I don't know if

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you remember this Martin but m'g cyst

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but there was these little windows below

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that you could slide open and there was

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a screen and my brother and I knew

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exactly how how easy it was to pop the

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screens out in each grab do an opening

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and pop screens out and stuck our heads

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out I was basically up to my waist out

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of the window and looking up what I

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found absolutely strange was that there

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was virtually no sound there was maybe a

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bit of a hissing sound but there was

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nothing there wasn't even birds chirpin

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everything was was quiet there wasn't

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traffic nothing was moving and we're

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staring up at this thing and my brother

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and I were looking each other thinking

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what is this this is ridiculous and

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we're watching for for you know 30 40

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seconds and the telephone rings and my

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mother you know she went over and picked

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up the phone and my dad's like just

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staring and and I heard my mom say yeah

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just a second I'll get him and then she

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calls over to my dad can you take the

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phone and my dad was annoyed oh my

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goodness he wanted to stare at this at

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this thing and he walked over he grabbed

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the phone and he said yeah and the

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person on the other end which I found

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out afterwards was a neighbor said she

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told him there's this huge thing over

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top over our house and but what I could

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hear wasn't that I couldn't hear that we

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found that afterwards but my dad was

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like yeah yeah I see it as well I have

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no idea what it is I got to go by he

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hangs up the phone and he walks over to

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the back to the door and I'll tell you

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what she said to him a little later but

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so now he's he's back at the doorway and

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then he realized this Wow somebody get

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me my binoculars and so he calls out to

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one of us and I forget if it was my

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brother I but somebody grabbed the

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binoculars brought it actually I think

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it was it was me because I gave him the

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binoculars

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I remember standing there thinking you

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know am I gonna get a turn and he's just

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looking up at it and he's taking his

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time I just went back to my little

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window stuck my head out and kept

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watching and then he's watching it for a

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bit and I remember him saying to my mom

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you gotta watch it you got a look at

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this take the binoculars take a look now

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this triangle kind of in the center of

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it there was it looked like it looked

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like these little lights in a circular

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but but you could tell that there was

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like a protrusion coming down I don't

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know how big but the reason I I say that

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is because it was like the lights went

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into a semicircle so I couldn't see the

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other side so I estimated I figured that

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it was it was a protrusion

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my dad says take a look at the lights

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and my mom grabbed some binoculars and

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she's like oh my goodness is that and

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then she says it's that she's about to

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finish her sentence and and my dad stops

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her and says yes and I and I bought it

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by that time I had to come out of the

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window and I was looking at them and I

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was looking at their eyes and thinking I

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was gonna get a turn next

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and my dad's eyes are this big and he

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said yes and he the way he he stopped

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her was kind of like that's enough we

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don't need to say anything and I was

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like you know can I have my turn and my

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mom looked again and then he said can I

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he asked her can I have the binoculars

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back and he grabbed my binoculars and he

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kept looking and at that point we

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noticed that just up the road at not at

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the road but just next to us kind of at

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a 45-degree angle from the front of her

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house what about us used to live there

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and my aunt was standing on the front

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porch and she was waving at us and and

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we noticed her and she's looking at us

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and she's going no she's doing this sign

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like what is it you see this and we're

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like yeah even see it we have no idea

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what it is

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and we just we just kept watching it and

269
00:13:58,300 --> 00:13:54,820
everybody immediately said well it's

270
00:14:02,590 --> 00:13:58,310
moving and it moved her bit and about

271
00:14:06,010 --> 00:14:02,600
the length of the craft it moved and by

272
00:14:07,510 --> 00:14:06,020
the time they got to let's say

273
00:14:10,060 --> 00:14:07,520
three-quarters of a kilometer that it

274
00:14:13,090 --> 00:14:10,070
had had pushed we could just see the the

275
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:13,100
back end of it it just disappeared it

276
00:14:18,340 --> 00:14:16,010
moved so quickly it was gone in the

277
00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:18,350
blink of an eye of an eye do you think

278
00:14:25,180 --> 00:14:20,330
it moved or do you think it just stood

279
00:14:28,540 --> 00:14:25,190
there yeah you know what I I thought

280
00:14:30,730 --> 00:14:28,550
about this a lot and in a shack I spoke

281
00:14:34,180 --> 00:14:30,740
to my father when we were adults when I

282
00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:34,190
was an adult but I I remember seeing a

283
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:38,690
slight acceleration in speed and then it

284
00:14:43,870 --> 00:14:41,690
was gone but it was so quick and I'd

285
00:14:47,230 --> 00:14:43,880
never seen anything move like that

286
00:14:48,970 --> 00:14:47,240
before but it was gone and it went it

287
00:14:53,020 --> 00:14:48,980
was it was north they went north and

288
00:14:57,580 --> 00:14:53,030
from there and actually North Bay which

289
00:15:00,070 --> 00:14:57,590
is was north from where I lived it had a

290
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:00,080
place that was is called the sage it's

291
00:15:07,690 --> 00:15:03,130
connected to NORAD its command center

292
00:15:13,150 --> 00:15:07,700
that was interlinked somehow but that's

293
00:15:15,970 --> 00:15:13,160
the direction it went Wow we were

294
00:15:17,350 --> 00:15:15,980
speechless we all kind of just kept

295
00:15:18,970 --> 00:15:17,360
staring at the sky wondering if they'd

296
00:15:20,350 --> 00:15:18,980
be anything else we were here looking to

297
00:15:22,150 --> 00:15:20,360
the opposite direction see if there was

298
00:15:26,230 --> 00:15:22,160
maybe more coming and there wasn't

299
00:15:30,190 --> 00:15:26,240
anything we're looking at each other

300
00:15:33,700 --> 00:15:30,200
wonder what was that and we ended up at

301
00:15:35,950 --> 00:15:33,710
that point going outside and I think in

302
00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:35,960
my when I wrote on your site and I

303
00:15:40,750 --> 00:15:39,290
recounted the story I didn't remember

304
00:15:44,650 --> 00:15:40,760
this part but I've been really thinking

305
00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:44,660
about the details and I remember we left

306
00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:46,370
the house and we went to go see my aunt

307
00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:48,050
just to talk to her and I remember

308
00:15:53,950 --> 00:15:52,370
walking over to my aunt and she looked

309
00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:53,960
at us so she was wonderful with kids she

310
00:15:56,769 --> 00:15:55,250
looked at us and her eyes were

311
00:15:58,869 --> 00:15:56,779
baby she had a big smile she goes did

312
00:16:01,660 --> 00:15:58,879
you see that that was wonderful it was

313
00:16:03,639 --> 00:16:01,670
so big and we were asking what do you

314
00:16:06,129 --> 00:16:03,649
think it was she says I don't know maybe

315
00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:06,139
visitors from somewhere else and we're

316
00:16:15,069 --> 00:16:10,490
so excited and my dad started talking to

317
00:16:17,079 --> 00:16:15,079
his sister and she said he asked her did

318
00:16:20,199 --> 00:16:17,089
you see the lights and she said yeah I

319
00:16:21,970 --> 00:16:20,209
saw it it was in the center she said he

320
00:16:25,420 --> 00:16:21,980
said to her we looked at it with the

321
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:25,430
binoculars and then they started you

322
00:16:29,470 --> 00:16:28,250
know whispering and I heard a couple of

323
00:16:33,850 --> 00:16:29,480
little things but I couldn't quite make

324
00:16:37,449 --> 00:16:33,860
it out but I heard it was like people I

325
00:16:40,540 --> 00:16:37,459
heard like there were people I asked

326
00:16:41,829 --> 00:16:40,550
what was it that and he said don't worry

327
00:16:44,170 --> 00:16:41,839
about it we'll talk about it later

328
00:16:47,290 --> 00:16:44,180
so we chatted a little bit with with my

329
00:16:49,179 --> 00:16:47,300
aunt and then we went back home and we

330
00:16:52,019 --> 00:16:49,189
sat around the kitchen table and I

331
00:16:54,460 --> 00:16:52,029
remember my dad getting himself a beer

332
00:16:59,530 --> 00:16:54,470
lighting himself a cigarette and

333
00:17:01,150 --> 00:16:59,540
thinking this is incredible and the you

334
00:17:02,679 --> 00:17:01,160
know my brother and I were just asking

335
00:17:05,559 --> 00:17:02,689
questions like what was it what was him

336
00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:05,569
my dad's I have no idea what it was you

337
00:17:11,710 --> 00:17:07,610
know like it's definitely not man-made

338
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:11,720
this thing was huge it just hovered it

339
00:17:18,819 --> 00:17:16,970
didn't move so we asked my mom what did

340
00:17:20,829 --> 00:17:18,829
you see what was it and finally she said

341
00:17:24,399 --> 00:17:20,839
you know what I looked at the door knock

342
00:17:27,850 --> 00:17:24,409
I looked at the lights it seemed it

343
00:17:30,370 --> 00:17:27,860
wasn't lights at all it was it looked

344
00:17:34,930 --> 00:17:30,380
like windows more like windows oh my

345
00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:34,940
goodness she said it looked like there

346
00:17:40,270 --> 00:17:36,530
were people looking at us

347
00:17:42,899 --> 00:17:40,280
there was like movement or something

348
00:17:45,370 --> 00:17:42,909
that made her think that it was it was

349
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:45,380
something alive that was looking back at

350
00:17:51,220 --> 00:17:45,530
us

351
00:17:52,870 --> 00:17:51,230
well I'm like what six like I'm freaking

352
00:17:55,180 --> 00:17:52,880
out here I'm thinking of myself oh my

353
00:17:57,880 --> 00:17:55,190
goodness what what are you talking about

354
00:18:00,130 --> 00:17:57,890
there's like eight aliens and my mom

355
00:18:02,909 --> 00:18:00,140
said I don't know it was you know this

356
00:18:06,220 --> 00:18:02,919
is what I saw and I could see movement

357
00:18:07,779 --> 00:18:06,230
and and that was it and then so my

358
00:18:08,770 --> 00:18:07,789
brother started talking he's saying oh

359
00:18:11,890 --> 00:18:08,780
it's it's

360
00:18:13,210 --> 00:18:11,900
definitely aliens and he takes off and

361
00:18:17,950 --> 00:18:13,220
he goes into his bedroom when he comes

362
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:17,960
back and he liked to read a lot and he

363
00:18:26,860 --> 00:18:23,570
had he had these magazines beautiful

364
00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:26,870
magazines and there were pictures of you

365
00:18:33,340 --> 00:18:29,330
know drawings of witness accounts or

366
00:18:35,230 --> 00:18:33,350
abductees of aliens and he shows me here

367
00:18:36,580 --> 00:18:35,240
that's probably what you saw and he

368
00:18:38,350 --> 00:18:36,590
shows it to my mom is that what you saw

369
00:18:40,900 --> 00:18:38,360
and my mom said I couldn't I couldn't

370
00:18:43,870 --> 00:18:40,910
see that that much detail I could just

371
00:18:45,670 --> 00:18:43,880
see something moving so I'm looking at

372
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:45,680
it oh my goodness is this what's going

373
00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:50,450
on is this look what was in there so we

374
00:18:55,390 --> 00:18:53,570
talked and it went on the evening kind

375
00:19:00,930 --> 00:18:55,400
of dragged on a little bit and the night

376
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:00,940
kind of came to the the Sun set and

377
00:19:07,390 --> 00:19:05,090
things got dark and across my dad was

378
00:19:12,070 --> 00:19:07,400
across from the end right behind him was

379
00:19:14,530 --> 00:19:12,080
a window facing south and you know how

380
00:19:16,390 --> 00:19:14,540
you get that reflection because it was

381
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:16,400
life light inside the house you could

382
00:19:21,940 --> 00:19:18,170
you could see your reflection well I

383
00:19:24,130 --> 00:19:21,950
started seeing eyes staring back at me

384
00:19:26,550 --> 00:19:24,140
and I was startled and I really jump in

385
00:19:30,910 --> 00:19:26,560
on my mom and and going and kind of

386
00:19:33,970 --> 00:19:30,920
hiding my my my sight of lying from the

387
00:19:35,500 --> 00:19:33,980
window behind my my father kind of and

388
00:19:37,090 --> 00:19:35,510
my mom's like what's the matter I'm

389
00:19:38,830 --> 00:19:37,100
seeing eyes there's an alien out there

390
00:19:41,530 --> 00:19:38,840
and and of course it was probably my

391
00:19:42,910 --> 00:19:41,540
imagination and you know my brother's

392
00:19:46,180 --> 00:19:42,920
you know he's saying don't worry about

393
00:19:48,940 --> 00:19:46,190
it you know it's nothing you know you

394
00:19:51,070 --> 00:19:48,950
didn't see anything and so we talked a

395
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:51,080
little bit about it some more and

396
00:19:55,180 --> 00:19:53,570
finally it was time for bed and you

397
00:19:57,970 --> 00:19:55,190
think I was going to go to bed there was

398
00:20:00,160 --> 00:19:57,980
no way I was going to go to bed and my

399
00:20:02,350 --> 00:20:00,170
parents got you know somewhat irritated

400
00:20:04,870 --> 00:20:02,360
and they said you got to go to bed so I

401
00:20:06,730 --> 00:20:04,880
remember walking over to my bedroom and

402
00:20:09,490 --> 00:20:06,740
peeking inside my bedroom and my

403
00:20:11,380 --> 00:20:09,500
curtains were open and of course it's

404
00:20:13,930 --> 00:20:11,390
like a mirror again I see my face but

405
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:13,940
then I see eyes again oh my goodness

406
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:16,250
like I scream and I run back to my mom

407
00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:19,010
I'm like you have to you have to go I'm

408
00:20:22,450 --> 00:20:21,770
not going to bed unless you shut those

409
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:22,460
curtains

410
00:20:27,100 --> 00:20:24,530
my mom's like you're being ridiculous

411
00:20:29,290 --> 00:20:27,110
and my brother starts laughing at me so

412
00:20:33,730 --> 00:20:29,300
I begged her and finally she went in and

413
00:20:36,790 --> 00:20:33,740
she shut the windows and I got ready for

414
00:20:41,650 --> 00:20:36,800
bed and and jumped into bed and I

415
00:20:43,750 --> 00:20:41,660
remember laying in bed and my parents

416
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:43,760
had turned the light on outside the

417
00:20:49,330 --> 00:20:47,090
porch light in the back and just below

418
00:20:52,060 --> 00:20:49,340
the curtains I could see light from the

419
00:20:54,250 --> 00:20:52,070
window and for whatever reason you know

420
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:54,260
the window was open so my curtains are

421
00:20:58,870 --> 00:20:56,330
moving a little bit and of course it

422
00:21:00,880 --> 00:20:58,880
made the light move a bit I was losing

423
00:21:04,690 --> 00:21:00,890
it I'd get underneath the covers I was

424
00:21:08,140 --> 00:21:04,700
so terrified really traumatized

425
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:08,150
oh my goodness it was crazy and for a

426
00:21:15,580 --> 00:21:13,250
couple months it was really strange

427
00:21:17,190 --> 00:21:15,590
because I would when it got dark out and

428
00:21:20,290 --> 00:21:17,200
now all the windows now mirrors

429
00:21:23,380 --> 00:21:20,300
reflecting what was inside

430
00:21:25,030 --> 00:21:23,390
I would I would run and let's say I was

431
00:21:27,660 --> 00:21:25,040
going into the living room I would run

432
00:21:32,070 --> 00:21:27,670
into the living room and kind of just

433
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:32,080
dive on to the couch and try to kind of

434
00:21:36,370 --> 00:21:34,850
hide myself from from the window but

435
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:36,380
there was no place you could hide there

436
00:21:41,590 --> 00:21:38,930
was always a window in insight but I did

437
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:41,600
this for months and my parents thought I

438
00:21:46,870 --> 00:21:43,570
was I was crazy and my brother of course

439
00:21:49,570 --> 00:21:46,880
laughed at me and but you know what to

440
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:49,580
this day I still get startled when I

441
00:21:53,860 --> 00:21:51,730
walk into your room and I just I get it

442
00:21:55,450 --> 00:21:53,870
you know when it's night out and I got

443
00:21:57,130 --> 00:21:55,460
that reflection I just get that little

444
00:21:59,740 --> 00:21:57,140
feeling inside me like oh my goodness

445
00:22:02,740 --> 00:21:59,750
okay nobody's out there nobody's

446
00:22:04,660 --> 00:22:02,750
watching me it's good yeah

447
00:22:06,940 --> 00:22:04,670
well we we ran a bit long there was

448
00:22:08,470 --> 00:22:06,950
something I forgot the men yeah but so

449
00:22:11,170 --> 00:22:08,480
I'm sorry when I have to wrap this up a

450
00:22:12,940 --> 00:22:11,180
little bit but go ahead go ahead okay I

451
00:22:15,460 --> 00:22:12,950
was just gonna say when we were all

452
00:22:17,230 --> 00:22:15,470
sitting around and talking after the

453
00:22:20,110 --> 00:22:17,240
incident I told my dad oh I can't wait

454
00:22:22,180 --> 00:22:20,120
to tell my my my friends at school yeah

455
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:22,190
school is just around the corner and I

456
00:22:25,090 --> 00:22:23,570
remember the first day of school and my

457
00:22:26,770 --> 00:22:25,100
dad told me he says don't you dare

458
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:26,780
you're gonna be laughed at you're gonna

459
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:28,970
be called crazy Wow what did I do

460
00:22:33,730 --> 00:22:31,970
I told my friends one when it was story

461
00:22:35,980 --> 00:22:33,740
time in the library and the librarian

462
00:22:37,810 --> 00:22:35,990
told me she says you know you saw

463
00:22:39,130 --> 00:22:37,820
Ballu I looked at her like are you

464
00:22:40,450 --> 00:22:39,140
kidding me that was not a weather

465
00:22:42,610 --> 00:22:40,460
balloon she says it was a weather

466
00:22:46,510 --> 00:22:42,620
balloon and she dismissed it I was yeah

467
00:22:50,230 --> 00:22:46,520
so as far as from that point on did you

468
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:50,240
ever talk about it or so yeah we talked

469
00:22:52,990 --> 00:22:52,010
about it on and off for the you know the

470
00:22:56,350 --> 00:22:53,000
next couple of months and then would

471
00:23:00,310 --> 00:22:56,360
forgot about it and my mama you know

472
00:23:01,750 --> 00:23:00,320
when I was an adult I never spoke about

473
00:23:04,030 --> 00:23:01,760
it to my mom for some reason I don't

474
00:23:06,370 --> 00:23:04,040
know why but my dad before he died the

475
00:23:08,650 --> 00:23:06,380
year before he died I remember we sat

476
00:23:11,140 --> 00:23:08,660
down and we had a couple of drinks and I

477
00:23:13,540 --> 00:23:11,150
asked them I said you know dad I need to

478
00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:13,550
ask you a question and he pretty much

479
00:23:18,850 --> 00:23:15,200
finished my sentence he says it's about

480
00:23:24,850 --> 00:23:18,860
that triangle we saw I said yeah and I

481
00:23:26,919 --> 00:23:24,860
mean you could see the stress you know

482
00:23:28,299 --> 00:23:26,929
there wasn't there isn't a day that have

483
00:23:30,820 --> 00:23:28,309
not thought about that thing he says I

484
00:23:34,780 --> 00:23:30,830
have no idea what it was but I wish he

485
00:23:37,750 --> 00:23:34,790
could come back and that's that's pretty

486
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:37,760
much it since then I've had little

487
00:23:42,730 --> 00:23:41,210
sightings but nothing yeah kind of some

488
00:23:45,070 --> 00:23:42,740
things in the sky at night but nothing

489
00:23:47,380 --> 00:23:45,080
like this is this was incredible yeah

490
00:23:48,870 --> 00:23:47,390
did he ever say what he saw in the

491
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:48,880
binoculars did he spell it out

492
00:23:54,010 --> 00:23:51,530
yeah he described it he said that he saw

493
00:23:55,660 --> 00:23:54,020
he couldn't quite see like the details

494
00:23:59,140 --> 00:23:55,670
of a face or anything like that but he

495
00:24:00,910 --> 00:23:59,150
could see movement so you know whatever

496
00:24:02,590 --> 00:24:00,920
that means he like he was trying to

497
00:24:04,270 --> 00:24:02,600
describe it he could see it looked like

498
00:24:05,380 --> 00:24:04,280
and it would stop and then there'd be a

499
00:24:07,930 --> 00:24:05,390
little bit of movement and they would

500
00:24:10,570 --> 00:24:07,940
stop again and he they assumed it was

501
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:10,580
somebody something looking back at us

502
00:24:16,990 --> 00:24:13,970
but but he was you know I asked him

503
00:24:20,260 --> 00:24:17,000
describe the event because I didn't want

504
00:24:21,010 --> 00:24:20,270
to kind of contaminate his memory or or

505
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:21,020
mine I guess

506
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:23,450
and I asked him to recount it and it was

507
00:24:30,100 --> 00:24:26,690
pretty much exactly what I thought I

508
00:24:32,350 --> 00:24:30,110
told you except I think it was the the

509
00:24:34,990 --> 00:24:32,360
you know the time frame I had originally

510
00:24:37,060 --> 00:24:35,000
thought it was mid August but he said no

511
00:24:38,380 --> 00:24:37,070
no it was closer to the end of August he

512
00:24:41,230 --> 00:24:38,390
said don't you remember he went to

513
00:24:43,870 --> 00:24:41,240
school of like like the fog Monday or

514
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:43,880
Tuesday or something like that so it was

515
00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:47,210
it was pretty much exact well yeah well

516
00:24:52,030 --> 00:24:49,130
we actually made it right up to the

517
00:24:53,830 --> 00:24:52,040
here so okay all right so thanks so much

518
00:24:54,130 --> 00:24:53,840
that was really great really appreciate

519
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:54,140
it

520
00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:55,850
no problem anyone can see that story

521
00:24:59,230 --> 00:24:58,010
right on the website podcast UFO calm

522
00:25:00,970 --> 00:24:59,240
under UFO sightings

523
00:25:03,910 --> 00:25:00,980
looks like you take care shock thanks

524
00:25:06,970 --> 00:25:03,920
for for agreeing to come on you take

525
00:25:16,270 --> 00:25:06,980
care alright alright everyone so we are

526
00:25:19,030 --> 00:25:16,280
going into the break right now actually

527
00:25:23,020 --> 00:25:19,040
before I go into the break I just wanted

528
00:25:27,550 --> 00:25:23,030
to say this is a I guess you would call

529
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:27,560
this a shameless plug for my artwork so

530
00:25:32,500 --> 00:25:29,570
I live up and I live up in Maine and I

531
00:25:34,030 --> 00:25:32,510
just started to do some local scenes I

532
00:25:38,170 --> 00:25:34,040
live right on the coast here in Maine so

533
00:25:40,270 --> 00:25:38,180
this is a the latest of the paintings

534
00:25:43,210 --> 00:25:40,280
that I've done I've also done a lot of

535
00:25:44,980 --> 00:25:43,220
different different types of paintings

536
00:25:47,770 --> 00:25:44,990
over the years and anyone can check out

537
00:25:51,010 --> 00:25:47,780
the paintings over at this is Aurora

538
00:25:53,470 --> 00:25:51,020
Borealis here actually this painting was

539
00:25:57,970 --> 00:25:53,480
an accident how that came out like that

540
00:26:01,000 --> 00:25:57,980
and so I went with it and also I do

541
00:26:04,410 --> 00:26:01,010
abstract work and that's Martin Willis

542
00:26:07,150 --> 00:26:04,420
art calm so check that out if anyone

543
00:26:10,330 --> 00:26:07,160
sees anything over there that they sort

544
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:10,340
of fancy all you have to do is use the

545
00:26:17,050 --> 00:26:14,930
code UFO and you get 50% off now I also

546
00:26:19,330 --> 00:26:17,060
want to say this too because I like to

547
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:19,340
get my art work out there so I can keep

548
00:26:24,340 --> 00:26:21,770
painting if anyone sees something that

549
00:26:26,770 --> 00:26:24,350
they really really like and they're

550
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:26,780
interested in it contact me we'll work

551
00:26:33,070 --> 00:26:29,810
something out again I like to get the

552
00:26:35,650 --> 00:26:33,080
paintings out there so I am going to

553
00:26:38,830 --> 00:26:35,660
this is during the break actually I'm

554
00:26:40,810 --> 00:26:38,840
gonna bring my guest on early I'm gonna

555
00:26:43,570 --> 00:26:40,820
have to introduce them twice it's only

556
00:26:45,580 --> 00:26:43,580
because the way this the sighting kind

557
00:26:48,310 --> 00:26:45,590
of ran over the time that I thought it

558
00:26:53,980 --> 00:26:48,320
would so I'm bringing bringing him back

559
00:26:57,820 --> 00:26:53,990
in now and so David welcome to the show

560
00:26:59,440 --> 00:26:57,830
I am delighted to be here Martin I'm

561
00:27:00,730 --> 00:26:59,450
gonna have to introduce you a second

562
00:27:02,399 --> 00:27:00,740
time because we're during the break

563
00:27:07,570 --> 00:27:02,409
right now

564
00:27:10,539 --> 00:27:07,580
yeah and I also have to bring in kgr a

565
00:27:15,399 --> 00:27:10,549
radio so they can tell us when when we

566
00:27:17,110 --> 00:27:15,409
go back so anyway thanks so much for

567
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:17,120
agreeing to come back so I guess what

568
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:17,690
I'll do

569
00:27:22,120 --> 00:27:20,090
David since we have a couple minutes

570
00:27:23,259 --> 00:27:22,130
left probably two minutes or so left to

571
00:27:26,409 --> 00:27:23,269
this break

572
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:26,419
where were you located you're in I am in

573
00:27:31,450 --> 00:27:28,970
Durham North Carolina Durham North

574
00:27:35,259 --> 00:27:31,460
Carolina and well have you been there a

575
00:27:40,629 --> 00:27:35,269
long time oh I've been in North Carolina

576
00:27:44,470 --> 00:27:40,639
now I think 44 years yeah that's that's

577
00:27:48,430 --> 00:27:44,480
pretty long yeah now is is the area

578
00:27:52,629 --> 00:27:48,440
known for any UFO sightings not that I

579
00:27:54,730 --> 00:27:52,639
know of I wish I could tell you that we

580
00:27:58,840 --> 00:27:54,740
that that's one of our claims to fame

581
00:28:00,490 --> 00:27:58,850
but I don't think it is I see we're

582
00:28:02,919 --> 00:28:00,500
getting a little bit of noise it might

583
00:28:05,289 --> 00:28:02,929
be from the cable on your mic if you

584
00:28:08,019 --> 00:28:05,299
want to pull that around front a lot of

585
00:28:13,659 --> 00:28:08,029
times the cables will rub and make

586
00:28:15,460 --> 00:28:13,669
noises so better now I'm still hearing a

587
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:15,470
little bit of it it's like a when you

588
00:28:19,299 --> 00:28:16,730
move this kind of a little bit of a

589
00:28:23,230 --> 00:28:19,309
noise maybe you can maybe it'll settle

590
00:28:26,889 --> 00:28:23,240
down but but you're also first in flight

591
00:28:29,740 --> 00:28:26,899
there that's true yeah we were where the

592
00:28:33,700 --> 00:28:29,750
Wright brothers for the first time flew

593
00:28:38,049 --> 00:28:33,710
a heavier-than-air craft that ended up

594
00:28:41,039 --> 00:28:38,059
higher then it started yeah only a few

595
00:28:44,470 --> 00:28:41,049
feet but those few feet were

596
00:28:45,850 --> 00:28:44,480
epoch-making yes that's right yeah

597
00:28:47,620 --> 00:28:45,860
you're gonna have to work a little bit

598
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:47,630
on that cable why don't you put the

599
00:28:51,970 --> 00:28:49,490
cable around the back of you maybe that

600
00:28:54,250 --> 00:28:51,980
will change things maybe let me try

601
00:28:59,470 --> 00:28:54,260
unplugging it and plugging it again no

602
00:29:00,850 --> 00:28:59,480
no that's not it how's this still

603
00:29:03,610 --> 00:29:00,860
hearing the noise it's funny we didn't

604
00:29:07,029 --> 00:29:03,620
hear during the sound test should I take

605
00:29:10,119 --> 00:29:07,039
should I try it without the I think we

606
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:10,129
may to do that I think we may have to do

607
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:17,800
is that unplugged now it's unplugged all

608
00:29:22,150 --> 00:29:19,970
right gentlemen we are coming back in

609
00:29:28,780 --> 00:29:22,160
five seconds all right sounds good

610
00:29:31,270 --> 00:29:28,790
stand by in three two one go all right

611
00:29:33,940 --> 00:29:31,280
we are back and my guest is David

612
00:29:36,190 --> 00:29:33,950
Halpern I'm this the second time I'm

613
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:36,200
welcome welcoming you welcome to the

614
00:29:41,050 --> 00:29:38,690
show David I'm delighted to be here

615
00:29:43,900 --> 00:29:41,060
Martin thank you so much for having me

616
00:29:45,790 --> 00:29:43,910
yes and you have a book this your second

617
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:45,800
book but I'd like to talk to you about

618
00:29:52,630 --> 00:29:49,850
you were actually a UFO researcher in

619
00:29:57,490 --> 00:29:52,640
your teens and along with Jerome Clark

620
00:30:00,610 --> 00:29:57,500
which is yeah oh yeah yes a funny story

621
00:30:03,180 --> 00:30:00,620
about Jerome back when I wasn't doing

622
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:03,190
these shows live I was pre-recording

623
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:07,010
Jerome was on my schedule to come on my

624
00:30:14,350 --> 00:30:11,090
show and so I I got him on skype and I

625
00:30:16,060 --> 00:30:14,360
started recording and so he I started in

626
00:30:17,260 --> 00:30:16,070
the conversation he goes you haven't

627
00:30:21,700 --> 00:30:17,270
read any of my books

628
00:30:26,230 --> 00:30:21,710
and I said no I haven't he goes well

629
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:26,240
this interview is over then and that was

630
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:28,850
as far as I got with him and he said if

631
00:30:32,890 --> 00:30:30,530
you want to he goes if you want to read

632
00:30:39,390 --> 00:30:32,900
one of my books and then schedule it and

633
00:30:42,910 --> 00:30:39,400
I'll be back so anyway it didn't go well

634
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:42,920
he's an extraordinary man I know he is

635
00:30:48,010 --> 00:30:45,650
and he's a musician and he's there's a

636
00:30:51,070 --> 00:30:48,020
yeah there's a lot going on with Jerome

637
00:30:54,100 --> 00:30:51,080
and he's one of the best researchers out

638
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:54,110
there been at it so long when he would

639
00:31:00,670 --> 00:30:57,530
when I was 15 and he was 16 we used to

640
00:31:05,410 --> 00:31:00,680
exchange 10 and 20 page letters about

641
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:05,420
you it's really Wow we we'd go back so

642
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:07,370
far Wow

643
00:31:12,100 --> 00:31:10,370
and so I know that was a long time ago

644
00:31:18,270 --> 00:31:12,110
but how did you get interested in the

645
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:18,280
topic so young I was 12 going on 13 and

646
00:31:25,810 --> 00:31:21,650
a friend of mine and I decided to write

647
00:31:27,930 --> 00:31:25,820
an extra-credit paper for science and I

648
00:31:32,970 --> 00:31:27,940
think we were going to do it on life on

649
00:31:35,369 --> 00:31:32,980
other planets and we decided we'd got

650
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:35,379
we're gonna have a a chapter on flying

651
00:31:42,119 --> 00:31:39,490
saucers back then flying saucers was the

652
00:31:46,919 --> 00:31:42,129
more common name for them this was this

653
00:31:49,950 --> 00:31:46,929
was in the fall of 1960 and we bicycle

654
00:31:53,610 --> 00:31:49,960
to the public library of Levittown

655
00:31:58,350 --> 00:31:53,620
Pennsylvania and there were three books

656
00:32:02,369 --> 00:31:58,360
on flying saucers there one was by Carl

657
00:32:06,180 --> 00:32:02,379
Jung flying saucers a modern myth of

658
00:32:11,580 --> 00:32:06,190
things seen in the skies and a second

659
00:32:15,539 --> 00:32:11,590
was grey Parker they knew too much about

660
00:32:19,129 --> 00:32:15,549
flying saucers so I borrowed the book

661
00:32:23,549 --> 00:32:19,139
took at home and began reading it and

662
00:32:30,529 --> 00:32:23,559
pretty soon I was so scared I wanted to

663
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:33,629
does an extraordinary story by the way

664
00:32:45,029 --> 00:32:39,970
yes it was yeah that that the if any if

665
00:32:47,669 --> 00:32:45,039
your listen if your viewers have not

666
00:32:51,139 --> 00:32:47,679
read they knew too much about flying

667
00:32:55,049 --> 00:32:51,149
saucers they have a rare treat in store

668
00:32:58,440 --> 00:32:55,059
for them it's an extraordinary book and

669
00:33:02,220 --> 00:32:58,450
that's the book that created what I will

670
00:33:06,450 --> 00:33:02,230
call the myth of the three men in black

671
00:33:09,830 --> 00:33:06,460
or more generally the man in black that

672
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:09,840
finally made it to Hollywood screens

673
00:33:17,759 --> 00:33:13,690
forty years later but that that was the

674
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:17,769
central theme of Barker's book that

675
00:33:26,039 --> 00:33:21,610
there are men in black who visit you if

676
00:33:32,419 --> 00:33:26,049
you found out too much about flying

677
00:33:38,810 --> 00:33:32,429
saucers and terrorize you into silence I

678
00:33:41,220 --> 00:33:38,820
read that book and instantly I was

679
00:33:47,370 --> 00:33:41,230
persuaded by it

680
00:33:53,490 --> 00:33:47,380
and I saw it as my mission at age almost

681
00:33:58,970 --> 00:33:53,500
13 to follow in the footsteps of the man

682
00:34:09,889 --> 00:34:03,450
unravel what Barker called the secret of

683
00:34:15,770 --> 00:34:09,899
the elusive disks that was the beginning

684
00:34:18,060 --> 00:34:15,780
now when was that book public 1956 oh

685
00:34:19,859 --> 00:34:18,070
wow okay

686
00:34:21,240 --> 00:34:19,869
now I got to tell you we're getting a

687
00:34:22,909 --> 00:34:21,250
little feedback from me you're gonna

688
00:34:25,379 --> 00:34:22,919
have to turn your volume down on your

689
00:34:27,750 --> 00:34:25,389
speakers just a little bit there let's

690
00:34:30,659 --> 00:34:27,760
do that okay you want to still be able

691
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:30,669
to hear me it sounds like it's okay yep

692
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:32,290
thank you guy are you fun

693
00:34:40,230 --> 00:34:37,450
so 1956 and Wow

694
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:40,240
and is that book that books long out of

695
00:34:45,830 --> 00:34:43,210
print but you can probably find it no

696
00:34:49,619 --> 00:34:45,840
it's it's been reissued in paperback I

697
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:49,629
see oh so I think anybody who wants that

698
00:34:56,820 --> 00:34:53,770
couldn't get hold of it uh-huh and so

699
00:35:00,790 --> 00:34:56,830
you went you dug right in at a very very

700
00:35:02,540 --> 00:35:00,800
young age and how long did that last

701
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:02,550
[Music]

702
00:35:14,609 --> 00:35:07,090
I'm gone sir is going to be until I went

703
00:35:20,099 --> 00:35:14,619
to college hmm but there are two more

704
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:20,109
accurate answers one answer is until my

705
00:35:27,750 --> 00:35:23,770
mother died which was a year before I

706
00:35:33,030 --> 00:35:27,760
went to college Wow and that to me was

707
00:35:35,910 --> 00:35:33,040
the pivotal event in my early ufology

708
00:35:40,230 --> 00:35:35,920
and we can talk more about that why that

709
00:35:43,410 --> 00:35:40,240
should have been so the other answer

710
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:43,420
which is an even truer answer is that

711
00:35:52,790 --> 00:35:48,450
it's lasted until this moment that the

712
00:35:57,620 --> 00:35:52,800
fascination that UFOs are for me

713
00:36:02,500 --> 00:35:57,630
has never faded even though I no longer

714
00:36:08,570 --> 00:36:02,510
believe that they objectively exist as

715
00:36:12,890 --> 00:36:08,580
physical machines as and I think you

716
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:12,900
spoke of this in your introduction now I

717
00:36:18,170 --> 00:36:15,810
went to college I majored in classical

718
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:18,180
and Semitic languages

719
00:36:27,530 --> 00:36:24,170
I focused eventually on the Bible and on

720
00:36:33,860 --> 00:36:27,540
early religious traditions particularly

721
00:36:37,310 --> 00:36:33,870
Jewish and the ones that most attracted

722
00:36:41,720 --> 00:36:37,320
me were traditions of heavenly ascent

723
00:36:45,620 --> 00:36:41,730
and otherworldly journeys the part of

724
00:36:49,790 --> 00:36:45,630
the Bible that I kept going back to was

725
00:36:54,710 --> 00:36:49,800
the Book of Ezekiel and Ezekiel begins

726
00:36:57,380 --> 00:36:54,720
his book with a vision of wheels it's

727
00:37:00,860 --> 00:36:57,390
part of a much part of a larger vision

728
00:37:03,890 --> 00:37:00,870
but the wheels are there many have said

729
00:37:05,060 --> 00:37:03,900
they're UFOs and I think those people

730
00:37:10,090 --> 00:37:05,070
are right

731
00:37:16,870 --> 00:37:10,100
I think Ezekiel's wheels were UFOs I

732
00:37:19,370 --> 00:37:16,880
just don't think UFOs are spaceships

733
00:37:22,430 --> 00:37:19,380
well you know I'm gonna have to ask you

734
00:37:24,410 --> 00:37:22,440
what you think they are right off the

735
00:37:30,410 --> 00:37:24,420
bat here we are very early in the show

736
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:30,420
here but and do you think that it could

737
00:37:35,570 --> 00:37:32,490
still be part of the equation or do you

738
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:35,580
think just absolutely no you don't think

739
00:37:39,530 --> 00:37:37,130
there are anything to do with

740
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:39,540
extraterrestrial I don't think so I

741
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:42,530
don't think so I think we say they're

742
00:37:51,140 --> 00:37:46,370
extraterrestrial because we intuitively

743
00:37:56,380 --> 00:37:51,150
see them as being alien and the only

744
00:38:00,050 --> 00:37:56,390
model we have for alienness is to say

745
00:38:04,079 --> 00:38:00,060
extraterrestrial but to me they are

746
00:38:10,410 --> 00:38:04,089
visitors not from outer space

747
00:38:15,749 --> 00:38:10,420
but from Innerspace inside us and we

748
00:38:20,759 --> 00:38:15,759
have inside us enough alienness to fill

749
00:38:25,170 --> 00:38:20,769
a universe okay well let's just bring

750
00:38:28,349 --> 00:38:25,180
back the topic of our guest that was

751
00:38:31,829 --> 00:38:28,359
just on prior to you shock yes

752
00:38:34,859 --> 00:38:31,839
lots of witnesses there how could the

753
00:38:37,049 --> 00:38:34,869
same thing manifest in multiple

754
00:38:40,249 --> 00:38:37,059
witnesses I don't know

755
00:38:45,150 --> 00:38:40,259
and there is the further complication

756
00:38:47,519 --> 00:38:45,160
that we're dealing with memories and we

757
00:38:51,029 --> 00:38:47,529
don't know how that affected us and how

758
00:38:53,849 --> 00:38:51,039
that affected it but I can say that

759
00:38:58,620 --> 00:38:53,859
there are cases and they're often quite

760
00:39:02,059 --> 00:38:58,630
baffling in which multiple witnesses see

761
00:39:05,519 --> 00:39:02,069
things that could not have happened and

762
00:39:10,549 --> 00:39:05,529
I will give you the example the miracle

763
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:10,559
of the Sun at Fatima Portugal in October

764
00:39:20,130 --> 00:39:14,170
1917 in which a crowd that some have

765
00:39:26,669 --> 00:39:20,140
estimated as 70,000 saw the Sun fall to

766
00:39:29,729 --> 00:39:26,679
the earth how did that happen I don't

767
00:39:33,749 --> 00:39:29,739
know the one thing I am perfectly sure

768
00:39:43,339 --> 00:39:33,759
of is that the Sun cannot possibly fall

769
00:39:48,359 --> 00:39:43,349
to the earth so what there was that made

770
00:39:53,099 --> 00:39:48,369
70,000 people simultaneously see it do

771
00:39:57,890 --> 00:39:53,109
an impossible thing I do not know now

772
00:40:01,679 --> 00:39:57,900
some of the UFO sightings involve

773
00:40:05,009 --> 00:40:01,689
multiple witnessing of things that we

774
00:40:09,749 --> 00:40:05,019
have good reason to believe were not

775
00:40:13,529 --> 00:40:09,759
there and I'm not into I'm not I don't

776
00:40:17,260 --> 00:40:13,539
know I'll spit those words out I don't

777
00:40:20,380 --> 00:40:17,270
know how that happens

778
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:20,390
oh okay yeah yeah

779
00:40:26,770 --> 00:40:23,570
I'm sorry continue but I'm not prepared

780
00:40:30,430 --> 00:40:26,780
to say that the things they saw were

781
00:40:32,650 --> 00:40:30,440
actually there well what about when

782
00:40:36,850 --> 00:40:32,660
things are backed up with radar data and

783
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:36,860
other you know other data look what

784
00:40:44,500 --> 00:40:42,050
other data are we talking filming you

785
00:40:48,340 --> 00:40:44,510
know for instance the Nimitz case when

786
00:40:51,100 --> 00:40:48,350
they had you know gun footage of of

787
00:40:53,980 --> 00:40:51,110
these objects and even then you know

788
00:40:56,770 --> 00:40:53,990
even though the Pentagon is you know

789
00:40:58,090 --> 00:40:56,780
saying that these are unidentified not

790
00:40:59,950 --> 00:40:58,100
knowing what they are of course that

791
00:41:02,020 --> 00:40:59,960
doesn't mean they're alien but still

792
00:41:06,010 --> 00:41:02,030
what about when things are backed up

793
00:41:12,340 --> 00:41:06,020
with other evidence besides I've seen

794
00:41:15,940 --> 00:41:12,350
I've seen some some videos about those

795
00:41:18,310 --> 00:41:15,950
famous Navy videos suggesting that at

796
00:41:22,540 --> 00:41:18,320
least one of them which seems to be

797
00:41:27,700 --> 00:41:22,550
zooming along the surface of the water

798
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:27,710
is in fact a weather balloon and that

799
00:41:36,310 --> 00:41:31,930
the apparent velocity of the thing is

800
00:41:42,330 --> 00:41:36,320
the velocity of the jet I will not swear

801
00:41:46,530 --> 00:41:42,340
that this is the answer but the evidence

802
00:41:51,430 --> 00:41:46,540
hardly seems to me to support the idea

803
00:41:57,310 --> 00:41:51,440
that we've been visited for the past 70

804
00:42:00,970 --> 00:41:57,320
years by extraterrestrials all right

805
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:00,980
it's a better well yeah yeah but I've

806
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:02,690
dodged you a question about the radar

807
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:05,690
right yeah I mean there was not only

808
00:42:10,330 --> 00:42:07,490
like just for instance the Nimitz case

809
00:42:14,890 --> 00:42:10,340
since I mentioned that it wasn't just

810
00:42:17,530 --> 00:42:14,900
one ship it was multiple ships that had

811
00:42:20,590 --> 00:42:17,540
this on the radar it was the Hawkeye you

812
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:20,600
know above that all they had all the

813
00:42:26,950 --> 00:42:23,210
data on this and we're talking about

814
00:42:29,740 --> 00:42:26,960
sophisticated equipment here so not only

815
00:42:31,469 --> 00:42:29,750
was it eyewitness but you know it was on

816
00:42:36,430 --> 00:42:31,479
the radar

817
00:42:40,479 --> 00:42:36,440
and for which it seems to me makes it

818
00:42:42,430 --> 00:42:40,489
just as if anything more likely that

819
00:42:46,809 --> 00:42:42,440
there was some sort of a glitch in the

820
00:42:49,739 --> 00:42:46,819
equipment how could that be

821
00:42:52,209 --> 00:42:49,749
if there's three radar units all

822
00:42:54,989 --> 00:42:52,219
reporting recording the same thing this

823
00:42:57,729 --> 00:42:54,999
isn't the only case but I'm just saying

824
00:43:01,089 --> 00:42:57,739
they're all recording at the same time

825
00:43:03,609 --> 00:43:01,099
the finest equipment that can be can be

826
00:43:07,779 --> 00:43:03,619
made today and you're saying it's all

827
00:43:09,849 --> 00:43:07,789
failing at the same time I'm saying that

828
00:43:16,269 --> 00:43:09,859
it does things that we don't quite

829
00:43:18,759 --> 00:43:16,279
expect it to do the radar yeah and when

830
00:43:21,939 --> 00:43:18,769
we talk about the radar I think we have

831
00:43:26,079 --> 00:43:21,949
to recognize and this is coming back to

832
00:43:29,079 --> 00:43:26,089
where I dropped your question that often

833
00:43:31,930 --> 00:43:29,089
things appear on the radar that don't

834
00:43:37,749 --> 00:43:31,940
appear that are not seen like this was

835
00:43:42,069 --> 00:43:37,759
the case in the famous chase in Belgium

836
00:43:46,390 --> 00:43:42,079
in March of 1990 where pilots were sent

837
00:43:49,209 --> 00:43:46,400
up to pursue objects that were seen from

838
00:43:53,699 --> 00:43:49,219
the ground they got radar locks on these

839
00:43:56,799 --> 00:43:53,709
objects they could not see them and they

840
00:43:59,999 --> 00:43:56,809
experienced on the radar the object

841
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:00,009
zooming away at supersonic speeds

842
00:44:07,390 --> 00:44:04,729
without a sonic boom that to me is

843
00:44:10,870 --> 00:44:07,400
pretty convincing evidence that whatever

844
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:10,880
we're dealing with there is not a solid

845
00:44:21,249 --> 00:44:15,650
object and what what are you proposing

846
00:44:27,059 --> 00:44:21,259
that it is that case I don't explain but

847
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:27,069
in my book Martin you made in my book

848
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:31,249
that I dealt with the Belgian sightings

849
00:44:39,219 --> 00:44:35,690
yeah and I talked about their triangles

850
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:39,229
that and the history of the triangle is

851
00:44:44,770 --> 00:44:42,729
an interesting sort of subdivision of

852
00:44:47,410 --> 00:44:44,780
UFO history what I

853
00:44:50,290 --> 00:44:47,420
was young a teenage you follow just we

854
00:44:53,350 --> 00:44:50,300
didn't have such things that try that

855
00:44:55,570 --> 00:44:53,360
the UFOs were either discs or else they

856
00:44:58,060 --> 00:44:55,580
were cigar shaped which were larger and

857
00:45:01,450 --> 00:44:58,070
we suppose that they were motherships

858
00:45:04,030 --> 00:45:01,460
the triangles the the the story that

859
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:04,040
Jacques told us is a very early story of

860
00:45:09,370 --> 00:45:07,010
triangles they really came into their

861
00:45:13,660 --> 00:45:09,380
own in the Hudson Valley sightings in

862
00:45:17,890 --> 00:45:13,670
the mid-80s and then in Belgium in 1989

863
00:45:21,340 --> 00:45:17,900
to 90 now the standard pattern it was

864
00:45:27,340 --> 00:45:21,350
not the only kind of UFO that people saw

865
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:27,350
during that wave was three lights and in

866
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:33,410
the center a weaker red light and I

867
00:45:39,700 --> 00:45:37,610
would use two ways of approaching that

868
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:39,710
and I should add one other thing that

869
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:44,090
when people photograph them they did not

870
00:45:51,430 --> 00:45:47,570
appear on the photographs that most they

871
00:45:53,230 --> 00:45:51,440
got a blog okay there was one good

872
00:45:56,710 --> 00:45:53,240
photograph and that turned out to be a

873
00:45:58,090 --> 00:45:56,720
hoax well there's actually in

874
00:46:02,230 --> 00:45:58,100
controversy about that

875
00:46:05,830 --> 00:46:02,240
and there's it's very deep I've spoke to

876
00:46:09,790 --> 00:46:05,840
Leslie Kane and depth about that there

877
00:46:13,870 --> 00:46:09,800
was some money exchanged so in regards

878
00:46:16,780 --> 00:46:13,880
to that photo so it's not 100% convinced

879
00:46:20,250 --> 00:46:16,790
ting that it is indeed a hoax yet

880
00:46:22,570 --> 00:46:20,260
because it can't be replicated even so

881
00:46:26,110 --> 00:46:22,580
this Patrick the guy who did it

882
00:46:27,550 --> 00:46:26,120
explained how it was done they tried to

883
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:27,560
get him to replicate it and he couldn't

884
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:31,490
do it as far as I know I can get more

885
00:46:36,220 --> 00:46:34,130
into that I don't have that information

886
00:46:41,620 --> 00:46:36,230
in front of me but I looked into this

887
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:41,630
quite a while ago but anyway yeah I'd

888
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:43,610
look in a different direction that I

889
00:46:50,890 --> 00:46:47,450
would look for what was inside the

890
00:46:56,020 --> 00:46:50,900
witnesses that they projected into the

891
00:46:57,010 --> 00:46:56,030
sky and one path I would take is the

892
00:46:58,570 --> 00:46:57,020
Yamata

893
00:47:01,000 --> 00:46:58,580
all right I mention

894
00:47:04,030 --> 00:47:01,010
that Young's flying saucers was one of

895
00:47:06,670 --> 00:47:04,040
the other books that was in the Levitan

896
00:47:08,410 --> 00:47:06,680
public library and when I read it I

897
00:47:10,210 --> 00:47:08,420
couldn't make head or tail out of it

898
00:47:13,240 --> 00:47:10,220
largely because I thought that wouldn't

899
00:47:16,690 --> 00:47:13,250
jurgen called UFOs a myth he was putting

900
00:47:21,100 --> 00:47:16,700
them down which he wasn't and that he

901
00:47:25,330 --> 00:47:21,110
showed that the standard disc shape the

902
00:47:29,650 --> 00:47:25,340
mandala is something that crops up in

903
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:29,660
dreams in legends as a symbol of

904
00:47:35,830 --> 00:47:33,170
wholeness and also there is another what

905
00:47:40,390 --> 00:47:35,840
he called an archetype of wholeness the

906
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:40,400
quaternary are up for a foursome of

907
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:43,130
which three are different from the

908
00:47:52,290 --> 00:47:46,010
fourth okay so here we've got a quarter

909
00:47:58,630 --> 00:47:52,300
nity of three bright white lights and a

910
00:48:02,590 --> 00:47:58,640
dimmer red one but now Eric Willett the

911
00:48:06,310 --> 00:48:02,600
Canadian sociologist has pointed in

912
00:48:10,630 --> 00:48:06,320
another direction that what would you

913
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:10,640
say complements yawns and that is what

914
00:48:18,370 --> 00:48:15,650
was the symbolism symbolism of white

915
00:48:22,810 --> 00:48:18,380
lights and a red light remember these

916
00:48:28,330 --> 00:48:22,820
the Belgian UFO wave began at the end of

917
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:28,340
November 19 1989 right after the Berlin

918
00:48:32,790 --> 00:48:31,330
Wall came down this was a time of

919
00:48:38,740 --> 00:48:32,800
earth-shaking

920
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:38,750
changes that communism was crumbling in

921
00:48:43,450 --> 00:48:41,570
Eastern and Central Europe mostly

922
00:48:47,140 --> 00:48:43,460
without violence and this is something

923
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:47,150
that nobody would have expected until it

924
00:48:57,900 --> 00:48:52,850
happened now the red star is a symbol

925
00:49:03,100 --> 00:48:57,910
for communism right and the white star

926
00:49:07,890 --> 00:49:03,110
was and is a symbol of NATO so I think

927
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:07,900
what people were seeing was a symbolic

928
00:49:18,820 --> 00:49:12,290
representation of what they knew

929
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:18,830
was happening around them well wasn't

930
00:49:25,870 --> 00:49:22,010
there dozens of police officers that in

931
00:49:29,860 --> 00:49:25,880
in the Belgian wave that reported seeing

932
00:49:31,930 --> 00:49:29,870
them yeah yeah and this gets into the

933
00:49:39,490 --> 00:49:31,940
problem of Al you've got multiple

934
00:49:41,590 --> 00:49:39,500
sightings well I guess you know I'm not

935
00:49:43,690 --> 00:49:41,600
agreeing with you here but that doesn't

936
00:49:48,220 --> 00:49:43,700
mean we can continue it can't continue

937
00:49:54,310 --> 00:49:48,230
to talk about it I just I just feel as

938
00:49:55,990 --> 00:49:54,320
though there's so many cases that with

939
00:49:58,750 --> 00:49:56,000
multiple witnesses I just can't

940
00:50:00,790 --> 00:49:58,760
understand how your theory and here you

941
00:50:03,940 --> 00:50:00,800
are a person that's looked at this topic

942
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:03,950
for a long time so I'm not you know I'm

943
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:06,530
not considering you addy bunker for that

944
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:10,130
you know reason alone but I find it

945
00:50:18,210 --> 00:50:13,490
interesting so how did you come up with

946
00:50:24,820 --> 00:50:22,510
because I could not under I could not

947
00:50:27,850 --> 00:50:24,830
make any sense out of the

948
00:50:30,100 --> 00:50:27,860
extra-terrestrial hypothesis you've

949
00:50:33,700 --> 00:50:30,110
pointed out some flaws of my approach

950
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:33,710
and I acknowledged there are incidents

951
00:50:40,290 --> 00:50:35,810
that I can't explain

952
00:50:46,060 --> 00:50:40,300
but there are so many flaws in the

953
00:50:50,250 --> 00:50:46,070
extra-terrestrial hypothesis why would

954
00:50:54,250 --> 00:50:50,260
we have space visitors for seventy years

955
00:50:59,650 --> 00:50:54,260
how could that be and that they have not

956
00:51:02,140 --> 00:50:59,660
had the slightest impact on the lives of

957
00:51:04,900 --> 00:51:02,150
people on earth I don't know if you've

958
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:04,910
read Donald Kehoe's that the flying

959
00:51:09,790 --> 00:51:07,010
saucers are real which was the first

960
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:09,800
book to be published the first UFO book

961
00:51:16,060 --> 00:51:13,850
to be published I had a kid 1950 but

962
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:16,070
there's a really quite affecting passage

963
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:19,970
of it in which Kehoe describes taking a

964
00:51:25,450 --> 00:51:22,610
commercial flight which is filled with

965
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:25,460
passengers and he says

966
00:51:32,770 --> 00:51:29,450
the lives of everyone on that plane were

967
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:32,780
go artwork we're about are about we're

968
00:51:41,500 --> 00:51:37,130
about to be transformed by the presence

969
00:51:46,290 --> 00:51:41,510
of the flying saucers now in 1950 that

970
00:51:51,069 --> 00:51:46,300
was a completely reasonable expectation

971
00:51:55,690 --> 00:51:51,079
seventy years have passed since Kehoe

972
00:51:59,370 --> 00:51:55,700
took that flight hardly anyone aboard

973
00:52:03,849 --> 00:51:59,380
that airplane is still alive

974
00:52:07,630 --> 00:52:03,859
not one single person's life has been

975
00:52:12,630 --> 00:52:07,640
affected in the slightest by the

976
00:52:16,299 --> 00:52:12,640
supposin visitors how is this

977
00:52:20,950 --> 00:52:16,309
intelligible if we have if we have

978
00:52:25,240 --> 00:52:20,960
spaceships from somewhere else well who

979
00:52:28,270 --> 00:52:25,250
are you to say that the that no one's

980
00:52:31,059 --> 00:52:28,280
lives have changed because I know plenty

981
00:52:35,049 --> 00:52:31,069
of people who have had you know an

982
00:52:36,849 --> 00:52:35,059
experience even just the a major

983
00:52:39,549 --> 00:52:36,859
sighting and their lives have totally

984
00:52:42,460 --> 00:52:39,559
changed so I can you put that in

985
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:42,470
different context yeah

986
00:52:52,829 --> 00:52:49,490
the thisn that by this time a reai me a

987
00:52:56,380 --> 00:52:52,839
reasonable expectation would have been

988
00:53:01,480 --> 00:52:56,390
that the UFOs would make themselves

989
00:53:05,829 --> 00:53:01,490
known that there would be no doubt about

990
00:53:08,230 --> 00:53:05,839
them it has not happened the early UFO

991
00:53:11,940 --> 00:53:08,240
books are filled with prophecies of this

992
00:53:15,609 --> 00:53:11,950
sort there that were bound to see major

993
00:53:19,599 --> 00:53:15,619
developments were bound to see mass

994
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:19,609
landings were bound to have something an

995
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:23,210
invasion contact something the decades

996
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:27,170
have passed nothing has happened as the

997
00:53:34,510 --> 00:53:30,530
Book of Ezekiel puts it the day's grow

998
00:53:37,500 --> 00:53:34,520
long and every vision Fairless every

999
00:53:41,070 --> 00:53:37,510
vision has failed

1000
00:53:45,599 --> 00:53:41,080
yeah but whose expectations is that's an

1001
00:53:48,720 --> 00:53:45,609
expectation that is put on an outside

1002
00:53:53,220 --> 00:53:48,730
source we have no control over that's

1003
00:53:57,420 --> 00:53:53,230
our own expectations so we have no idea

1004
00:53:59,460 --> 00:53:57,430
what their agenda who if they are you

1005
00:54:02,370 --> 00:53:59,470
know from extraterrestrial well I'm not

1006
00:54:04,770 --> 00:54:02,380
saying that I know that they are but I'm

1007
00:54:08,670 --> 00:54:04,780
just saying whoever is visiting us from

1008
00:54:10,710 --> 00:54:08,680
wherever we have no idea what their

1009
00:54:13,859 --> 00:54:10,720
their thoughts and and you know we don't

1010
00:54:17,430 --> 00:54:13,869
have any idea of their physics or how

1011
00:54:20,340 --> 00:54:17,440
they got here or or what they are but

1012
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:20,350
begins to explain why they can go with

1013
00:54:26,460 --> 00:54:23,010
supersonic speeds without sonic booms

1014
00:54:28,140 --> 00:54:26,470
that is that's something yeah like I

1015
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:28,150
said in physics that they may know about

1016
00:54:34,020 --> 00:54:30,810
that we don't you know it could be

1017
00:54:36,710 --> 00:54:34,030
something along those lines now I will

1018
00:54:41,940 --> 00:54:36,720
turn that around mark and I will ask you

1019
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:41,950
what then is gained by explaining UFOs

1020
00:54:50,240 --> 00:54:45,850
as extraterrestrial visitors since we

1021
00:54:52,670 --> 00:54:50,250
can pause it nothing about

1022
00:54:56,060 --> 00:54:52,680
extraterrestrial visitors

1023
00:55:02,400 --> 00:54:56,070
what is the advantage of saying that

1024
00:55:04,349 --> 00:55:02,410
over saying we don't know I I generally

1025
00:55:07,500 --> 00:55:04,359
say the listeners on this show know me

1026
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:07,510
well enough to say that that's generally

1027
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:10,810
the term I say you know there's only one

1028
00:55:16,380 --> 00:55:13,090
case that I've ever and that was just

1029
00:55:18,870 --> 00:55:16,390
last week and that was the aerial school

1030
00:55:21,030 --> 00:55:18,880
incident where I said you know I don't

1031
00:55:24,599 --> 00:55:21,040
know what else to explain of those

1032
00:55:28,260 --> 00:55:24,609
creatures that you know 62 plus school

1033
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:28,270
children had you know saw firsthand I

1034
00:55:32,910 --> 00:55:30,850
have no idea what else to call them but

1035
00:55:35,250 --> 00:55:32,920
aliens that was the first time that I've

1036
00:55:37,980 --> 00:55:35,260
actually said that that I can remember

1037
00:55:40,950 --> 00:55:37,990
on the show I think extraterrestrial is

1038
00:55:42,900 --> 00:55:40,960
a possibility but and I don't rule it

1039
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:42,910
out but I still don't claim that

1040
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:45,010
everything is extraterrestrial that's

1041
00:55:55,210 --> 00:55:52,060
so then I would I would go at it in from

1042
00:55:57,370 --> 00:55:55,220
a different angle and ask the basic

1043
00:56:01,600 --> 00:55:57,380
question which was the basic question of

1044
00:56:02,590 --> 00:56:01,610
my book not what are UFOs or where do

1045
00:56:07,650 --> 00:56:02,600
they come from

1046
00:56:11,980 --> 00:56:07,660
but what do they mean to treat them as

1047
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:11,990
vessels of meaning and to say that we

1048
00:56:23,860 --> 00:56:16,610
see them because they mean something to

1049
00:56:27,190 --> 00:56:23,870
us and this is the model that I used to

1050
00:56:28,110 --> 00:56:27,200
explain the cases that I took up in the

1051
00:56:33,010 --> 00:56:28,120
book

1052
00:56:36,240 --> 00:56:33,020
including one classic case the William

1053
00:56:39,490 --> 00:56:36,250
Booth Gill sighting in Papua New Guinea

1054
00:56:42,460 --> 00:56:39,500
shall we talk about that sure I think

1055
00:56:45,450 --> 00:56:42,470
that's a great a great case yes yes it's

1056
00:56:49,830 --> 00:56:45,460
a ok because we are dealing here with

1057
00:56:54,610 --> 00:56:49,840
multiple witnesses that something like

1058
00:56:58,830 --> 00:56:54,620
25 this the witness who's been regarded

1059
00:57:04,570 --> 00:56:58,840
as the primary witness and this may be a

1060
00:57:08,590 --> 00:57:04,580
racist colonialist bias the primary

1061
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:08,600
witnesses has been had taken to be

1062
00:57:15,490 --> 00:57:11,810
William Booth Gill and a young anglican

1063
00:57:17,830 --> 00:57:15,500
priest of about 31 who was serving as a

1064
00:57:23,470 --> 00:57:17,840
missionary at a place called boyo died

1065
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:23,480
in Papua New Guinea he and something

1066
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:27,890
like 25 of his parishioners signed a

1067
00:57:41,050 --> 00:57:36,290
paper describing how they had seen discs

1068
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:41,060
at fairly close range and human-like

1069
00:57:51,790 --> 00:57:47,050
beings walking on top of the disks now

1070
00:57:55,300 --> 00:57:51,800
Gill said at one point no doubt they are

1071
00:57:58,570 --> 00:57:55,310
human beings which should be food for

1072
00:57:59,940 --> 00:57:58,580
thought for all of us that we are now so

1073
00:58:04,980 --> 00:57:59,950
used

1074
00:58:08,690 --> 00:58:04,990
to the classic image of the gray with

1075
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:08,700
the light bulb shaped head and the huge

1076
00:58:17,100 --> 00:58:13,570
outsized oval eyes that we forget that

1077
00:58:21,660 --> 00:58:17,110
that image did not exist until the

1078
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:21,670
beginning of 1987 prior to that the

1079
00:58:27,090 --> 00:58:24,850
people who reported seeing humanoids or

1080
00:58:31,260 --> 00:58:27,100
human-like beings in connection with the

1081
00:58:34,470 --> 00:58:31,270
UFOs described them in other ways and in

1082
00:58:37,500 --> 00:58:34,480
the case of Gil it was that they looked

1083
00:58:42,270 --> 00:58:37,510
like human beings in all respects except

1084
00:58:44,190 --> 00:58:42,280
that they glowed so at one point he said

1085
00:58:48,180 --> 00:58:44,200
they were humans and then at other times

1086
00:58:50,610 --> 00:58:48,190
he said they were angels and to me I

1087
00:58:56,820 --> 00:58:50,620
would hold on to both that they were

1088
00:58:58,980 --> 00:58:56,830
human and they were angels okay this I

1089
00:59:01,680 --> 00:58:58,990
don't think is explainable if you

1090
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:01,690
suppose that these were actual space

1091
00:59:10,350 --> 00:59:06,610
visitors why should they should we get

1092
00:59:14,970 --> 00:59:10,360
different kinds of visitors depending on

1093
00:59:17,220 --> 00:59:14,980
what book becomes a best-seller I'm

1094
00:59:21,510 --> 00:59:17,230
thinking of Whitley streamers Communion

1095
00:59:22,740 --> 00:59:21,520
and stirs up the imaginations of the

1096
00:59:26,220 --> 00:59:22,750
people who saw it

1097
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:26,230
now what were Gil and his parishioners

1098
00:59:33,210 --> 00:59:29,770
looking at sky chart suggests that they

1099
00:59:36,690 --> 00:59:33,220
were looking at unusually bright stars

1100
00:59:39,300 --> 00:59:36,700
of planets seen through clouds they

1101
00:59:42,750 --> 00:59:39,310
thought was why they tended to disappear

1102
00:59:47,580 --> 00:59:42,760
as the clouds gather and return as the

1103
00:59:53,190 --> 00:59:47,590
clouds dispersed something within them

1104
00:59:57,440 --> 00:59:53,200
was emerging and what I saw it as was a

1105
01:00:03,030 --> 00:59:57,450
union mandala the Union Quarter natee

1106
01:00:06,660 --> 01:00:03,040
which they created together not just

1107
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:06,670
kill his parishioners came from

1108
01:00:12,660 --> 01:00:10,690
traditions in which sky gods descend

1109
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:12,670
from heaven and manna

1110
01:00:20,130 --> 01:00:16,530
themselves to human beings and their

1111
01:00:24,030 --> 01:00:20,140
vision I'd actually prefer to call UFO

1112
01:00:29,670 --> 01:00:24,040
sightings visions than sightings their

1113
01:00:33,980 --> 01:00:29,680
vision served to bridge to attempt to

1114
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:33,990
heal the conflicts between Gil and his

1115
01:00:44,309 --> 01:00:39,490
people it seems to me if you try to say

1116
01:00:50,130 --> 01:00:44,319
that these were extraterrestrials you

1117
01:00:54,630 --> 01:00:50,140
run into an insurmountable problem

1118
01:01:00,539 --> 01:00:54,640
why were they seen as humans and if you

1119
01:01:06,990 --> 01:01:00,549
say well they were making it up I think

1120
01:01:11,940 --> 01:01:07,000
that it makes no sense at all so I would

1121
01:01:16,609 --> 01:01:11,950
say they were having what for them was a

1122
01:01:21,390 --> 01:01:16,619
healing vision coming from inside

1123
01:01:26,270 --> 01:01:21,400
stimulated by bright heavenly bodies but

1124
01:01:27,539 --> 01:01:26,280
what counted was what it meant for them

1125
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:27,549
now

1126
01:01:33,930 --> 01:01:30,010
you used the word debunk or a moment ago

1127
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:33,940
and I want to say I do not consider

1128
01:01:41,490 --> 01:01:38,170
myself a debunker I consider myself a

1129
01:01:45,420 --> 01:01:41,500
skeptic because I don't believe that the

1130
01:01:48,620 --> 01:01:45,430
UFOs actually exists but I don't believe

1131
01:01:53,339 --> 01:01:48,630
their book I believe there's something

1132
01:01:56,250 --> 01:01:53,349
extremely important and that a UFO

1133
01:02:04,620 --> 01:01:56,260
sighting is what our ancestors would

1134
01:02:08,599 --> 01:02:04,630
have called a vision of God well up so

1135
01:02:11,430 --> 01:02:08,609
getting back to the farther guilt case

1136
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:11,440
you know there was interaction there too

1137
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:14,650
with the flashlights and the waving and

1138
01:02:19,770 --> 01:02:17,410
all that but you think I just can't

1139
01:02:23,309 --> 01:02:19,780
under I can't understand when you're you

1140
01:02:25,470 --> 01:02:23,319
know the Fatima think you know back then

1141
01:02:26,550 --> 01:02:25,480
with all those witnesses and yes 40 to

1142
01:02:29,430 --> 01:02:26,560
70 thousand feet

1143
01:02:31,950 --> 01:02:29,440
and what they saw you know was not the

1144
01:02:35,070 --> 01:02:31,960
Sun there has been in question about

1145
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:35,080
whether it was a UFO and then the church

1146
01:02:40,620 --> 01:02:37,210
got involved and said it was something

1147
01:02:44,700 --> 01:02:40,630
holy and you know so but they you know I

1148
01:02:47,340 --> 01:02:44,710
don't know how all of these people can

1149
01:02:49,650 --> 01:02:47,350
see the same thing at the same time and

1150
01:02:54,030 --> 01:02:49,660
one thing one other point I want to make

1151
01:02:57,060 --> 01:02:54,040
here is again last week's guests whether

1152
01:03:00,510 --> 01:02:57,070
it was also first-hand witness to who

1153
01:03:06,390 --> 01:03:00,520
was a school child at the time in 1994

1154
01:03:09,300 --> 01:03:06,400
in Rewa Africa and the at the aerial

1155
01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:09,310
school when they saw the beings you know

1156
01:03:15,330 --> 01:03:12,370
firsthand and one was you know kind of

1157
01:03:17,220 --> 01:03:15,340
skimming along and blinking out and

1158
01:03:19,830 --> 01:03:17,230
blinking in like it didn't look like it

1159
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:19,840
was actually running this is according

1160
01:03:24,270 --> 01:03:21,970
you know to a witness but when they drew

1161
01:03:27,690 --> 01:03:24,280
pictures of them they did have the big

1162
01:03:30,780 --> 01:03:27,700
almond eyes no black eyes like that now

1163
01:03:34,860 --> 01:03:30,790
the point I'm getting at is these kids

1164
01:03:38,580 --> 01:03:34,870
so isolated had no idea and never heard

1165
01:03:41,460 --> 01:03:38,590
the word UFO had never heard of thought

1166
01:03:44,640 --> 01:03:41,470
the word of aliens or anything like that

1167
01:03:47,910 --> 01:03:44,650
yet they all witnessed this and some of

1168
01:03:49,770 --> 01:03:47,920
them is you know very young all

1169
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:49,780
witnessed this and to this day their

1170
01:03:55,650 --> 01:03:52,330
stories have never changed what date are

1171
01:03:59,910 --> 01:03:55,660
we talking about what's that what date

1172
01:04:02,160 --> 01:03:59,920
are we talking 1994 yeah and had nothing

1173
01:04:05,940 --> 01:04:02,170
to do with Whitley Strieber because this

1174
01:04:07,500 --> 01:04:05,950
is South Africa and just know completely

1175
01:04:11,010 --> 01:04:07,510
isolate a very small little village

1176
01:04:13,950 --> 01:04:11,020
small town there was no exposure to UFOs

1177
01:04:18,420 --> 01:04:13,960
there how do you know that well

1178
01:04:20,940 --> 01:04:18,430
according to you know people that have

1179
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:20,950
actually interviewed them my my guest

1180
01:04:26,580 --> 01:04:23,770
last week that they just never had any

1181
01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:26,590
exposure are you thinking that your you

1182
01:04:30,990 --> 01:04:28,090
would think that they would have to have

1183
01:04:34,490 --> 01:04:31,000
exposure to come up with this yeah yeah

1184
01:04:39,900 --> 01:04:34,500
well I I I would want to find somebody

1185
01:04:44,099 --> 01:04:39,910
who describes those huge eyes

1186
01:04:48,599 --> 01:04:44,109
prior to communion I mean if you look

1187
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:48,609
Patrick we did a book on UFO occupants

1188
01:04:57,120 --> 01:04:52,690
with depiction with the with with

1189
01:05:02,690 --> 01:04:57,130
artwork depicting the huge eyes don't

1190
01:05:06,059 --> 01:05:02,700
appear until 1987 what about Barney

1191
01:05:08,099 --> 01:05:06,069
Barney Hill I saw that you wrote in his

1192
01:05:11,759 --> 01:05:08,109
book those are pretty pretty large eyes

1193
01:05:14,490 --> 01:05:11,769
that he drew not like streamers now what

1194
01:05:16,999 --> 01:05:14,500
was remarkable about Barney Hills eyes

1195
01:05:19,249 --> 01:05:17,009
was that they were wrap around and

1196
01:05:24,329 --> 01:05:19,259
Mardon caught Maier has I think

1197
01:05:26,970 --> 01:05:24,339
demonstrated very convincingly that the

1198
01:05:31,140 --> 01:05:26,980
wraparound eyes came from a science

1199
01:05:34,859 --> 01:05:31,150
fiction aasaiya a science fiction TV

1200
01:05:36,990 --> 01:05:34,869
show the outer limits that they firt

1201
01:05:40,620 --> 01:05:37,000
that that this that it was the outer

1202
01:05:43,259 --> 01:05:40,630
limits in February of 1964 that first

1203
01:05:46,410 --> 01:05:43,269
introduced them and then two weeks later

1204
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:46,420
they turn up in Barney Hills hypnotic

1205
01:05:51,900 --> 01:05:49,450
regressions now Berryhill

1206
01:05:53,759 --> 01:05:51,910
denied that this was possible she said

1207
01:05:56,549 --> 01:05:53,769
Barney never we never watched that show

1208
01:06:00,390 --> 01:05:56,559
Barney would never have watched it but

1209
01:06:02,700 --> 01:06:00,400
things like that her in the air he may

1210
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:02,710
have heard his co-workers talking about

1211
01:06:12,749 --> 01:06:07,930
it and it I mean we can we could look at

1212
01:06:17,930 --> 01:06:12,759
I have the picture the the sketch that

1213
01:06:21,269 --> 01:06:17,940
Barney did and it's in my book of the

1214
01:06:27,059 --> 01:06:21,279
you know beings that he's that he

1215
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:27,069
remembered yes I have it I have your

1216
01:06:37,410 --> 01:06:30,970
book here too yeah I'll move it up here

1217
01:06:40,140 --> 01:06:37,420
now notice those eyes have iris I won't

1218
01:06:43,019 --> 01:06:40,150
say iris and pupil because I don't see

1219
01:06:46,499 --> 01:06:43,029
your pupil but they are they are there

1220
01:06:49,140 --> 01:06:46,509
they are like human eyes and that

1221
01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:49,150
they've gotta at least an iris now in

1222
01:06:53,339 --> 01:06:52,210
Whitley strippers from sorry I'm putting

1223
01:06:56,489 --> 01:06:53,349
it in the wrong direction

1224
01:07:00,930 --> 01:06:56,499
but in Whitley strippers this is solid

1225
01:07:04,049 --> 01:07:00,940
black with sort of a split running down

1226
01:07:06,660 --> 01:07:04,059
from one corner of the eye to another

1227
01:07:10,049 --> 01:07:06,670
these do not seem to me at all to be the

1228
01:07:12,630 --> 01:07:10,059
same kind of eyes all right well I'm

1229
01:07:15,749 --> 01:07:12,640
gonna also i'm gonna keep arguing this

1230
01:07:17,939 --> 01:07:15,759
aerial school because they all sell

1231
01:07:20,099 --> 01:07:17,949
there are black eyes and they're all

1232
01:07:22,439 --> 01:07:20,109
there are very little children there's

1233
01:07:24,569 --> 01:07:22,449
no way they could have coordinated sixty

1234
01:07:26,189 --> 01:07:24,579
five children to all do the same thing

1235
01:07:28,979 --> 01:07:26,199
when they came running in from the

1236
01:07:31,739 --> 01:07:28,989
playground the teachers went out half

1237
01:07:34,349 --> 01:07:31,749
two teachers went out and saw the the

1238
01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:34,359
object and I don't know if they saw the

1239
01:07:39,390 --> 01:07:37,690
beings or not but anyway there's just no

1240
01:07:42,630 --> 01:07:39,400
way these kids could have come up with

1241
01:07:49,469 --> 01:07:42,640
that on even through a coordinated event

1242
01:07:53,870 --> 01:07:49,479
I think that human beings have an

1243
01:07:57,410 --> 01:07:53,880
extraordinary ability to communicate

1244
01:08:01,140 --> 01:07:57,420
with each other without even knowing

1245
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:01,150
without were doing it I believe it was

1246
01:08:08,969 --> 01:08:05,890
Bruce hood in super sense who wrote that

1247
01:08:13,069 --> 01:08:08,979
there were there have been studies in

1248
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:13,079
which people are students watch

1249
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:17,770
something like ten seconds of a college

1250
01:08:26,099 --> 01:08:22,210
professor lecturing don't even hear

1251
01:08:29,249 --> 01:08:26,109
without even voice just the sight of the

1252
01:08:34,289 --> 01:08:29,259
the professor lecturing and they are

1253
01:08:37,950 --> 01:08:34,299
able to guess with a very high degree of

1254
01:08:42,870 --> 01:08:37,960
accuracy what kind of course evaluations

1255
01:08:47,099 --> 01:08:42,880
that professor gets we communicate

1256
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:47,109
enormous amounts of information to each

1257
01:08:52,200 --> 01:08:49,690
other without being aware of it and

1258
01:08:55,260 --> 01:08:52,210
that's by the way what I think happened

1259
01:08:57,120 --> 01:08:55,270
with Fothergill I and his people I think

1260
01:09:03,059 --> 01:08:57,130
they must have said oh do you see that

1261
01:09:05,860 --> 01:09:03,069
do you see that and at least a large

1262
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:05,870
number of those who were present not

1263
01:09:10,900 --> 01:09:07,610
because some of them didn't sign the

1264
01:09:16,660 --> 01:09:10,910
paper attesting to seeing it but a large

1265
01:09:20,320 --> 01:09:16,670
number of them were were able without

1266
01:09:22,930 --> 01:09:20,330
being aware of it to come to a consensus

1267
01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:22,940
about what they were seeing I think

1268
01:09:28,870 --> 01:09:24,890
something of the sort must have happened

1269
01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:28,880
at Fatima although I don't know and I'm

1270
01:09:34,030 --> 01:09:32,210
not sure I mean there that I am tempted

1271
01:09:36,790 --> 01:09:34,040
to say well maybe it's mental telepathy

1272
01:09:41,650 --> 01:09:36,800
but then we're explaining one unknown by

1273
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:41,660
another and I'm not going to do that so

1274
01:09:47,890 --> 01:09:44,810
I don't know exactly what the mechanism

1275
01:09:52,030 --> 01:09:47,900
was at our the reo school I don't know

1276
01:09:56,170 --> 01:09:52,040
exactly what the mode of communication

1277
01:10:01,080 --> 01:09:56,180
was but it seems to me it is vastly more

1278
01:10:04,980 --> 01:10:01,090
probable that there was some form of

1279
01:10:10,110 --> 01:10:04,990
communication some form of I would say

1280
01:10:15,100 --> 01:10:10,120
unconscious coordination than to say

1281
01:10:22,150 --> 01:10:15,110
that these beings who are not observed

1282
01:10:25,330 --> 01:10:22,160
before 1987 objectively exist well why

1283
01:10:28,780 --> 01:10:25,340
don't you try to give me some examples

1284
01:10:31,570 --> 01:10:28,790
of other things that you think manifests

1285
01:10:33,100 --> 01:10:31,580
in this way I mean through some type of

1286
01:10:36,970 --> 01:10:33,110
you mentioned about the college

1287
01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:36,980
professor but because I I really I I

1288
01:10:41,200 --> 01:10:39,050
don't agree with you on this to be

1289
01:10:44,230 --> 01:10:41,210
honest with you you know and and that's

1290
01:10:47,080 --> 01:10:44,240
that's fine you have your opinion I have

1291
01:10:49,570 --> 01:10:47,090
mine but I can't you know I had a UFO

1292
01:10:53,020 --> 01:10:49,580
sighting and there's nothing in the

1293
01:10:55,750 --> 01:10:53,030
world that made that well any point that

1294
01:11:00,100 --> 01:10:55,760
I can imagine where I thought I want to

1295
01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:00,110
see a UFO or I have this disc you know

1296
01:11:04,210 --> 01:11:02,210
in in my head you know the thought of it

1297
01:11:07,780 --> 01:11:04,220
or something like that and all of a

1298
01:11:11,110 --> 01:11:07,790
sudden it just appear out of nowhere and

1299
01:11:13,210 --> 01:11:11,120
what about all you know the Phoenix

1300
01:11:14,980 --> 01:11:13,220
lights for for instance and the

1301
01:11:16,540 --> 01:11:14,990
thousands of people that saw that and

1302
01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:16,550
they were all in different locations

1303
01:11:19,629 --> 01:11:17,690
they weren't together they weren't

1304
01:11:22,270 --> 01:11:19,639
communicating

1305
01:11:24,550 --> 01:11:22,280
with each other the phone ran up ringing

1306
01:11:26,620 --> 01:11:24,560
off the hook for four weeks from

1307
01:11:30,100 --> 01:11:26,630
witnesses from that that were outside

1308
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:30,110
looking at the comet in a situation like

1309
01:11:34,560 --> 01:11:32,570
that how can you argue that yeah I don't

1310
01:11:37,540 --> 01:11:34,570
know what the Phoenix lights were I

1311
01:11:40,120 --> 01:11:37,550
don't know what they were but I'll give

1312
01:11:42,700 --> 01:11:40,130
you you asked for you asked for another

1313
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:42,710
example let's take one that I gave in my

1314
01:11:49,060 --> 01:11:46,010
book this was in the epilogue are you

1315
01:11:50,649 --> 01:11:49,070
familiar with John Lennon and Mae pangs

1316
01:11:55,500 --> 01:11:50,659
UFO sighting

1317
01:11:58,959 --> 01:11:55,510
yeah 1974 I've read yeah yeah yeah and

1318
01:12:04,750 --> 01:11:58,969
this is where I get very very Union

1319
01:12:07,410 --> 01:12:04,760
alright cuz that's the let's say the the

1320
01:12:12,819 --> 01:12:07,420
the the the model that I'm working with

1321
01:12:14,709 --> 01:12:12,829
that it was an August evening in 1974

1322
01:12:17,109 --> 01:12:14,719
and I must tell you when Jacques was

1323
01:12:19,629 --> 01:12:17,119
talking I thought ah an August evening

1324
01:12:22,209 --> 01:12:19,639
the windows open

1325
01:12:25,839 --> 01:12:22,219
although in other respects I don't think

1326
01:12:29,260 --> 01:12:25,849
his experience is like that of John and

1327
01:12:32,620 --> 01:12:29,270
Mei pang that Mei was coming out of the

1328
01:12:35,439 --> 01:12:32,630
shower and John was walking around the

1329
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:35,449
apartment naked as was there as was his

1330
01:12:41,080 --> 01:12:38,210
habit he calls to her Mei Mei come how

1331
01:12:43,270 --> 01:12:41,090
it may may come out here he's out on the

1332
01:12:45,790 --> 01:12:43,280
terrace of the penthouse apartment and

1333
01:12:48,069 --> 01:12:45,800
she drops the towel and comes out

1334
01:12:51,069 --> 01:12:48,079
they're both naked and why I keep

1335
01:12:55,180 --> 01:12:51,079
insisting on that is that in nearly all

1336
01:13:00,250 --> 01:12:55,190
of the interviews with John and may they

1337
01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:00,260
both keep coming back to their be to

1338
01:13:05,950 --> 01:13:03,770
being naked they go and woke up and

1339
01:13:10,689 --> 01:13:05,960
you'll see why I think that's crucially

1340
01:13:15,010 --> 01:13:10,699
important in a minute they see a disc a

1341
01:13:18,970 --> 01:13:15,020
domed disc passing overhead John says

1342
01:13:21,100 --> 01:13:18,980
that if I had had a brick do I could

1343
01:13:23,260 --> 01:13:21,110
have thrown it and hit it thrown the

1344
01:13:27,939 --> 01:13:23,270
brick and hit this object it was so

1345
01:13:32,709 --> 01:13:27,949
close they had a camera they took photos

1346
01:13:36,580 --> 01:13:32,719
of it the photos came out black

1347
01:13:39,580 --> 01:13:36,590
which to me is proof that there was

1348
01:13:43,120 --> 01:13:39,590
nothing in the sky that as I keep saying

1349
01:13:48,330 --> 01:13:43,130
again and again in my book the UFO came

1350
01:13:52,290 --> 01:13:48,340
from inside now why is nudity important

1351
01:13:56,490 --> 01:13:52,300
because if I were to ask your viewers

1352
01:14:01,380 --> 01:13:56,500
when was the last time that a naked

1353
01:14:06,340 --> 01:14:01,390
human couple was confronted by a

1354
01:14:14,320 --> 01:14:06,350
numinous presence surely they would

1355
01:14:17,770 --> 01:14:14,330
answer in the Garden of Eden right well

1356
01:14:22,630 --> 01:14:17,780
that God is walking in the garden in the

1357
01:14:27,550 --> 01:14:22,640
cool of the day says Adam where art thou

1358
01:14:31,030 --> 01:14:27,560
and Adam says I heard thy voice walking

1359
01:14:36,939 --> 01:14:31,040
in the garden and I was ashamed because

1360
01:14:42,330 --> 01:14:36,949
I was naked and I hid myself so what I'm

1361
01:14:50,370 --> 01:14:42,340
suggesting then is that John and may

1362
01:15:01,110 --> 01:14:56,050
archetypal story of the human couple

1363
01:15:07,390 --> 01:15:01,120
that the naked human couple confronted

1364
01:15:09,760 --> 01:15:07,400
by a numinous presence that conveys to

1365
01:15:15,070 --> 01:15:09,770
them and we're taking another step here

1366
01:15:20,080 --> 01:15:15,080
their mortality dust thou art for dye

1367
01:15:23,800 --> 01:15:20,090
and dust shalt thou return now how does

1368
01:15:28,290 --> 01:15:23,810
this happen my belief is that these

1369
01:15:35,680 --> 01:15:28,300
things are hardwired in the human mind

1370
01:15:38,800 --> 01:15:35,690
and that they can emerge precisely when

1371
01:15:42,760 --> 01:15:38,810
they're least wanted this was the same

1372
01:15:45,810 --> 01:15:42,770
John Lennon who three years before had

1373
01:15:51,330 --> 01:15:45,820
sung his most famous song

1374
01:15:57,750 --> 01:15:51,340
of the post beetle era imagine imagine

1375
01:16:02,090 --> 01:15:57,760
there's no heaven above us only sky um

1376
01:16:06,930 --> 01:16:02,100
in other words banishing the enchanted

1377
01:16:13,890 --> 01:16:06,940
numinous evan and the enchanted numinous

1378
01:16:17,610 --> 01:16:13,900
evan comes back and once again we have

1379
01:16:21,450 --> 01:16:17,620
the problem of how the two of them see

1380
01:16:24,300 --> 01:16:21,460
it together and I can talk more I can

1381
01:16:27,350 --> 01:16:24,310
give you another example of that problem

1382
01:16:32,580 --> 01:16:27,360
with but you've already flagged it

1383
01:16:36,990 --> 01:16:32,590
what's that that that the pascagoula

1384
01:16:40,590 --> 01:16:37,000
abduction okay okay I'm in touch with

1385
01:16:43,470 --> 01:16:40,600
Calvin all the time so I'm sure he's a

1386
01:16:48,210 --> 01:16:43,480
very religious man by the way but well

1387
01:16:53,150 --> 01:16:48,220
then then if Calvin is watching I would

1388
01:16:55,500 --> 01:16:53,160
say I'd value your responses to this

1389
01:17:01,760 --> 01:16:55,510
because Calvin I'm going to have to

1390
01:17:06,210 --> 01:17:01,770
admit to you that I don't think you and

1391
01:17:09,930 --> 01:17:06,220
Nixon were abducted I don't think it was

1392
01:17:13,170 --> 01:17:09,940
possible you were close enough to a

1393
01:17:15,750 --> 01:17:13,180
highway that they that the the object

1394
01:17:18,690 --> 01:17:15,760
that abducted you would have been

1395
01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:18,700
visible to dozens if not hundreds of

1396
01:17:28,230 --> 01:17:23,730
motorists and there was no confirming

1397
01:17:32,130 --> 01:17:28,240
report but I also don't think you and

1398
01:17:35,270 --> 01:17:32,140
Charles oak stood that makes no sense to

1399
01:17:37,980 --> 01:17:35,280
me at all and I'm not quite gonna stop

1400
01:17:41,790 --> 01:17:37,990
addressing Calvin I'm gonna address you

1401
01:17:44,610 --> 01:17:41,800
Martin that what most struck me about

1402
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:44,620
that abduction is the police tapes you

1403
01:17:50,910 --> 01:17:45,850
know what I'm talking about

1404
01:17:54,950 --> 01:17:50,920
yes yes that the the the police when

1405
01:17:57,990 --> 01:17:54,960
they reported it put them in a room

1406
01:17:59,760 --> 01:17:58,000
where they thought they were alone there

1407
01:18:03,480 --> 01:17:59,770
was a hidden tape recorder

1408
01:18:06,480 --> 01:18:03,490
and the police expected that when they

1409
01:18:08,850 --> 01:18:06,490
played the tapes they would hear Hickson

1410
01:18:11,460 --> 01:18:08,860
and Parker shortly about how they'd

1411
01:18:13,850 --> 01:18:11,470
fooled these dumb cops and what they

1412
01:18:17,010 --> 01:18:13,860
instead heard was something like

1413
01:18:20,580 --> 01:18:17,020
something like that drive you slam bam

1414
01:18:22,110 --> 01:18:20,590
out of your mind Jesus Christ like to

1415
01:18:25,700 --> 01:18:22,120
give me a heart attack

1416
01:18:29,990 --> 01:18:25,710
these were two people who had had

1417
01:18:35,100 --> 01:18:30,000
something that they experienced that

1418
01:18:37,980 --> 01:18:35,110
affected them powerfully now what was

1419
01:18:40,650 --> 01:18:37,990
that what really interests me and this

1420
01:18:42,510 --> 01:18:40,660
is not only this is not original with me

1421
01:18:46,860 --> 01:18:42,520
I cannot remember the name of the author

1422
01:18:51,480 --> 01:18:46,870
but it was a Jungian analysis of their

1423
01:18:57,240 --> 01:18:51,490
experience which focused on how the UFO

1424
01:19:01,740 --> 01:18:57,250
opened like a coin purse okay and let me

1425
01:19:06,740 --> 01:19:01,750
I happen to have by an odd coincidence a

1426
01:19:10,350 --> 01:19:06,750
coin purse in my pocket that it opened

1427
01:19:12,900 --> 01:19:10,360
okay so I'm holding it right was sort of

1428
01:19:15,300 --> 01:19:12,910
like this you're seeing that okay we've

1429
01:19:18,270 --> 01:19:15,310
seen one of those in years yeah yeah why

1430
01:19:20,640 --> 01:19:18,280
I'm very old-fashioned I sort of carry

1431
01:19:25,920 --> 01:19:20,650
things around that other people have

1432
01:19:30,750 --> 01:19:25,930
discarded long ago that is the way a

1433
01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:30,760
fish's mouth would open these were two

1434
01:19:40,580 --> 01:19:35,610
men who went onto the pier to fish and

1435
01:19:44,670 --> 01:19:40,590
were themselves fished for by a greater

1436
01:19:50,360 --> 01:19:44,680
fish and I begin to think that just as

1437
01:19:55,440 --> 01:19:50,370
John and May reenacted the Eden story

1438
01:20:00,780 --> 01:19:55,450
Calvin and Charles re-enacted the story

1439
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:00,790
of Jonah something of that sort would

1440
01:20:07,470 --> 01:20:03,970
ona and the whale not accept it was the

1441
01:20:14,049 --> 01:20:07,480
Bible never says well Lord had prepared

1442
01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:14,059
a great fish to swallow Jonah well

1443
01:20:19,669 --> 01:20:16,650
you know well let me ask you this has

1444
01:20:22,850 --> 01:20:19,679
anyone ever gotten angry at you for for

1445
01:20:26,180 --> 01:20:22,860
telling them that what they saw was not

1446
01:20:30,379 --> 01:20:26,190
basically a manifestation of thoughts or

1447
01:20:34,430 --> 01:20:30,389
whatever have you can people angry at

1448
01:20:36,319 --> 01:20:34,440
you because I hope you can call me I've

1449
01:20:45,680 --> 01:20:36,329
gotten people angry at me for many

1450
01:20:48,859 --> 01:20:45,690
reasons I do not think I cannot recall

1451
01:20:51,830 --> 01:20:48,869
any the closest thing that came to that

1452
01:20:54,049 --> 01:20:51,840
was you know the whole business about

1453
01:20:55,129 --> 01:20:54,059
Westall high school in Melbourne

1454
01:20:58,129 --> 01:20:55,139
Australia

1455
01:21:02,149 --> 01:20:58,139
oh yes mm-hmm yes and I should say that

1456
01:21:05,810 --> 01:21:02,159
Shane Ryan who was the May the primary

1457
01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:05,820
investigator of this yes he and I he is

1458
01:21:12,560 --> 01:21:09,210
a fine gentleman and he and I have for

1459
01:21:16,760 --> 01:21:12,570
the past four years cordially disagreed

1460
01:21:21,950 --> 01:21:16,770
about what was going on at West LA now

1461
01:21:27,399 --> 01:21:21,960
what struck me in one of the witnesses

1462
01:21:31,609 --> 01:21:27,409
who saw actually two landed discs that

1463
01:21:36,020 --> 01:21:31,619
in the drawing that was made of them

1464
01:21:39,530 --> 01:21:36,030
they look exactly like the breasts of a

1465
01:21:41,899 --> 01:21:39,540
girl or woman lying on her back and this

1466
01:21:43,910 --> 01:21:41,909
was in an area which according to

1467
01:21:47,780 --> 01:21:43,920
Shane's the movie that Shane was

1468
01:21:53,299 --> 01:21:47,790
featured in West all 66 was a known

1469
01:21:56,839 --> 01:21:53,309
place for steamy liaisons okay so I

1470
01:22:00,979 --> 01:21:56,849
suggested that what the witness

1471
01:22:05,120 --> 01:22:00,989
remembered was something about the

1472
01:22:09,020 --> 01:22:05,130
sexual activities in this area and one

1473
01:22:11,569 --> 01:22:09,030
ufologists not not Shane showed the

1474
01:22:15,500 --> 01:22:11,579
witness what I'd written and apparently

1475
01:22:18,109 --> 01:22:15,510
he was completely flabbergasted I would

1476
01:22:22,700 --> 01:22:18,119
not blame this man at all if he were

1477
01:22:25,879 --> 01:22:22,710
furious at me I don't know what I don't

1478
01:22:27,790 --> 01:22:25,889
know whether he was or just unbelieving

1479
01:22:31,870 --> 01:22:27,800
that I could have a man

1480
01:22:35,140 --> 01:22:31,880
in such a thing so I suppose the short

1481
01:22:36,730 --> 01:22:35,150
answer to your question is if they

1482
01:22:40,540 --> 01:22:36,740
didn't get mad at me

1483
01:22:45,190 --> 01:22:40,550
I am surprised because they had every

1484
01:22:47,560 --> 01:22:45,200
reason to get mad at me okay well at

1485
01:22:49,270 --> 01:22:47,570
least you have thick skin because you're

1486
01:22:51,400 --> 01:22:49,280
gonna need it when I take phone calls a

1487
01:22:54,520 --> 01:22:51,410
little bit you might need it I should

1488
01:22:56,320 --> 01:22:54,530
say I'm gonna last will ask people to be

1489
01:23:00,150 --> 01:22:56,330
kind yeah

1490
01:23:04,210 --> 01:23:00,160
now when when you're when you are

1491
01:23:06,100 --> 01:23:04,220
looking into these cases there's so

1492
01:23:10,750 --> 01:23:06,110
there's nothing that you have found in

1493
01:23:14,320 --> 01:23:10,760
all through history that of any UFO

1494
01:23:17,230 --> 01:23:14,330
cases and witnesses and maybe trace

1495
01:23:20,590 --> 01:23:17,240
evidence cases nothing nothing that

1496
01:23:22,900 --> 01:23:20,600
convinces you that it could be and I'm

1497
01:23:26,350 --> 01:23:22,910
not saying extraterrestrial because I

1498
01:23:29,380 --> 01:23:26,360
don't really know if these objects are

1499
01:23:33,010 --> 01:23:29,390
but I mean there's other speculation of

1500
01:23:35,350 --> 01:23:33,020
where they may be coming from I'll tell

1501
01:23:38,620 --> 01:23:35,360
you of all the cases that you might cite

1502
01:23:43,950 --> 01:23:38,630
the one that troubles me the most is

1503
01:23:50,950 --> 01:23:43,960
Socorro New Mexico aha April 1964 yeah

1504
01:23:54,580 --> 01:23:50,960
okay there there were traces it very

1505
01:23:58,660 --> 01:23:54,590
good Union pattern by the way sort of

1506
01:24:00,340 --> 01:23:58,670
like a tripod and a triangle and a

1507
01:24:03,610 --> 01:24:00,350
fourth trace that is outside the

1508
01:24:08,380 --> 01:24:03,620
triangle there was one witness Lonnie

1509
01:24:09,900 --> 01:24:08,390
Zamora who was regarded by everyone as a

1510
01:24:13,510 --> 01:24:09,910
reliable witness

1511
01:24:16,120 --> 01:24:13,520
now Zamora could have dug those holes

1512
01:24:20,500 --> 01:24:16,130
and if you pushed me into a corner

1513
01:24:25,870 --> 01:24:20,510
I would have to say yes I think he did

1514
01:24:28,690 --> 01:24:25,880
dig those holes and make up the make up

1515
01:24:33,060 --> 01:24:28,700
his story but Lonnie if you're listening

1516
01:24:39,930 --> 01:24:33,070
from the other world please forgive me

1517
01:24:41,920 --> 01:24:39,940
because I know that I am speaking ill of

1518
01:24:45,520 --> 01:24:41,930
a man whom

1519
01:24:48,580 --> 01:24:45,530
everyone regarded as a solid citizen and

1520
01:24:51,310 --> 01:24:48,590
upright lawman and someone who would not

1521
01:24:53,640 --> 01:24:51,320
opes what I cannot think of any

1522
01:24:57,310 --> 01:24:53,650
alternative and I am totally

1523
01:25:00,240 --> 01:24:57,320
dissatisfied with this hypothesis if

1524
01:25:03,310 --> 01:25:00,250
anyone can come up with a better one I

1525
01:25:06,970 --> 01:25:03,320
will be interested but I do not count

1526
01:25:10,560 --> 01:25:06,980
the idea that these small humanoids who

1527
01:25:14,590 --> 01:25:10,570
were shaped exactly like human beings

1528
01:25:16,660 --> 01:25:14,600
except for their diminutive size that

1529
01:25:20,250 --> 01:25:16,670
that--they that they were visitors from

1530
01:25:25,060 --> 01:25:20,260
another planet that I do not consider

1531
01:25:27,700 --> 01:25:25,070
unacceptable altered well ray Stanford

1532
01:25:35,670 --> 01:25:27,710
often listens to the show if he was the

1533
01:25:39,730 --> 01:25:37,900
don't have the title right off the tip

1534
01:25:42,400 --> 01:25:39,740
of my tongue here but if he happens to

1535
01:25:44,860 --> 01:25:42,410
be listening he may want to call in to

1536
01:25:51,130 --> 01:25:44,870
talk to you about that case he he knew

1537
01:25:54,160 --> 01:25:51,140
Lonnie and there it just seems like you

1538
01:25:58,000 --> 01:25:54,170
know money was the last person out there

1539
01:26:00,370 --> 01:25:58,010
that wanted any attention you know that

1540
01:26:06,300 --> 01:26:00,380
part too right so why would he help

1541
01:26:09,220 --> 01:26:06,310
someone so unsatisfied unsatisfied

1542
01:26:11,470 --> 01:26:09,230
but it's your only answer is that what

1543
01:26:15,340 --> 01:26:11,480
you're saying it's the best I can come

1544
01:26:19,380 --> 01:26:15,350
up with like your Occam's razor so to

1545
01:26:22,930 --> 01:26:19,390
speak I don't know if it's Occam's razor

1546
01:26:25,330 --> 01:26:22,940
but yeah I mean I could okay I'm gonna

1547
01:26:26,980 --> 01:26:25,340
do this is kind of cheating okay and

1548
01:26:31,540 --> 01:26:26,990
I'll admit that but I'm gonna flip it

1549
01:26:35,890 --> 01:26:31,550
around and say how likely is it that in

1550
01:26:43,150 --> 01:26:35,900
70 years we would have such a just a

1551
01:26:46,020 --> 01:26:43,160
handful of solid cases like this okay

1552
01:26:51,790 --> 01:26:46,030
that's your question to me and yeah

1553
01:26:53,410 --> 01:26:51,800
maybe maybe they are observing and want

1554
01:26:55,240 --> 01:26:53,420
to just observe whoever they are

1555
01:26:57,670 --> 01:26:55,250
wherever they're from

1556
01:27:00,460 --> 01:26:57,680
and maybe there maybe they realized that

1557
01:27:05,470 --> 01:27:00,470
they would have an impact on any type of

1558
01:27:08,710 --> 01:27:05,480
society that would expose wherever

1559
01:27:13,060 --> 01:27:08,720
they're from and then we get back to the

1560
01:27:16,330 --> 01:27:13,070
question of their motives which when I

1561
01:27:19,000 --> 01:27:16,340
was a teenage you follow gist I gave the

1562
01:27:21,310 --> 01:27:19,010
same answer that I've heard from you we

1563
01:27:24,160 --> 01:27:21,320
can't say put ourselves in our their

1564
01:27:27,790 --> 01:27:24,170
place because we don't know what their

1565
01:27:31,740 --> 01:27:27,800
place is and it's only now that I would

1566
01:27:36,700 --> 01:27:31,750
say this strips the extra-terrestrial

1567
01:27:40,870 --> 01:27:36,710
hypothesis of any explanatory power it

1568
01:27:43,720 --> 01:27:40,880
might have and and can you explain that

1569
01:27:47,740 --> 01:27:43,730
a little more yeah because if we don't

1570
01:27:51,910 --> 01:27:47,750
have any idea what kind of behavior

1571
01:27:55,930 --> 01:27:51,920
would be expected of alien visitors then

1572
01:28:00,640 --> 01:27:55,940
what do we gain by saying it is alien

1573
01:28:05,740 --> 01:28:00,650
visitors but that's that's has nothing

1574
01:28:08,410 --> 01:28:05,750
to do with that would be like we're not

1575
01:28:11,260 --> 01:28:08,420
gonna change dark matter but we don't

1576
01:28:18,550 --> 01:28:11,270
know what it is you know I mean I don't

1577
01:28:24,660 --> 01:28:18,560
understand your reasoning there that

1578
01:28:27,630 --> 01:28:24,670
okay when Kehoe in 1950 said these are

1579
01:28:31,840 --> 01:28:27,640
beings from other planets visiting this

1580
01:28:39,250 --> 01:28:31,850
he thought he knew what we could expect

1581
01:28:43,560 --> 01:28:39,260
from that he thought he knew what space

1582
01:28:48,340 --> 01:28:43,570
visitors could be expected to do and

1583
01:28:52,260 --> 01:28:48,350
therefore that was an answer to the

1584
01:28:57,270 --> 01:28:52,270
question of what people were seeing

1585
01:29:00,330 --> 01:28:57,280
seventy years later all we can say is

1586
01:29:04,870 --> 01:29:00,340
whatever they're doing is something

1587
01:29:08,470 --> 01:29:04,880
utterly unlike what we might imagine

1588
01:29:09,260 --> 01:29:08,480
them to be doing in which case we don't

1589
01:29:12,170 --> 01:29:09,270
know

1590
01:29:14,480 --> 01:29:12,180
any more than we did to start applet

1591
01:29:17,990 --> 01:29:14,490
yeah but what does that have to do with

1592
01:29:20,540 --> 01:29:18,000
us I mean we're that's our again I'll

1593
01:29:23,150 --> 01:29:20,550
say it again that's our X maybe your

1594
01:29:25,820 --> 01:29:23,160
expectations or maybe some other

1595
01:29:27,920 --> 01:29:25,830
people's expectations as well but that

1596
01:29:30,290 --> 01:29:27,930
it has nothing to do with the the actual

1597
01:29:33,560 --> 01:29:30,300
situation seventy years it's a little

1598
01:29:36,860 --> 01:29:33,570
tiny blip of time when it comes to you

1599
01:29:40,910 --> 01:29:36,870
know the cosmos so to speak I mean what

1600
01:29:47,080 --> 01:29:40,920
is 70 years why not 2,000 years or 50

1601
01:29:53,230 --> 01:29:50,470
then now I don't understand your point

1602
01:29:55,580 --> 01:29:53,240
okay it sounds to me like you're saying

1603
01:29:57,650 --> 01:29:55,590
seven years later we don't know anything

1604
01:29:59,330 --> 01:29:57,660
and we should know something by now is

1605
01:30:02,210 --> 01:29:59,340
that what is that what you're saying

1606
01:30:05,150 --> 01:30:02,220
yeah and I think if you read the UFO

1607
01:30:07,100 --> 01:30:05,160
books from back then they were filled

1608
01:30:10,190 --> 01:30:07,110
with that expectation it's the most

1609
01:30:12,470 --> 01:30:10,200
reasonable expectation in the world why

1610
01:30:19,900 --> 01:30:12,480
is it reasonable that's our thoughts has

1611
01:30:27,520 --> 01:30:23,390
think because when you say that there

1612
01:30:31,280 --> 01:30:27,530
are visitors we assume these are

1613
01:30:35,320 --> 01:30:31,290
intelligent beings the kind of beings

1614
01:30:45,280 --> 01:30:35,330
that we might communicate with and

1615
01:31:00,020 --> 01:30:51,380
understandings then to say that it's

1616
01:31:06,830 --> 01:31:00,030
intelligent beings makes no sense I mean

1617
01:31:08,690 --> 01:31:06,840
this the I remember when I was a when I

1618
01:31:12,490 --> 01:31:08,700
was a teenage you follow just I remember

1619
01:31:15,290 --> 01:31:12,500
I drew a cartoon and the cartoon showed

1620
01:31:19,430 --> 01:31:15,300
made a couple of Native Americans by a

1621
01:31:23,029 --> 01:31:19,440
shore watching three ships approached

1622
01:31:25,429 --> 01:31:23,039
the Nina the Pinta and the Santa Maria

1623
01:31:27,379 --> 01:31:25,439
and one of the Native Americans says to

1624
01:31:31,000 --> 01:31:27,389
the other you brought me all the way out

1625
01:31:33,439 --> 01:31:31,010
here to look at temperature inversions

1626
01:31:37,459 --> 01:31:33,449
okay good you left I mean I thought it

1627
01:31:46,520 --> 01:31:37,469
was a pretty funny cartoon but when they

1628
01:31:52,029 --> 01:31:46,530
when the natives encountered these alien

1629
01:31:59,889 --> 01:31:52,039
craft that appeared on their horizon the

1630
01:32:09,219 --> 01:32:03,439
that nothing of the sort has happened

1631
01:32:14,239 --> 01:32:09,229
with the UFOs seems to me to cast a

1632
01:32:20,299 --> 01:32:14,249
tremendous shadow on whether it is

1633
01:32:23,739 --> 01:32:20,309
helpful to call them visitors unless you

1634
01:32:28,069 --> 01:32:23,749
do it as I do to speak of them as

1635
01:32:34,250 --> 01:32:28,079
visitors ins from inside us telling us

1636
01:32:39,199 --> 01:32:34,260
things that we need to know not

1637
01:32:41,419 --> 01:32:39,209
necessarily want to know yeah well you

1638
01:32:44,329 --> 01:32:41,429
know I'm if I argue with you more I'm

1639
01:32:47,059 --> 01:32:44,339
basically gonna be seeing the same the

1640
01:32:49,729 --> 01:32:47,069
same thing because my thoughts are that

1641
01:32:52,959 --> 01:32:49,739
you know whatever it is may just be

1642
01:32:55,879 --> 01:32:52,969
observing may not choose to interact and

1643
01:32:56,869 --> 01:32:55,889
like you said when you're back in the

1644
01:32:58,969 --> 01:32:56,879
1960s

1645
01:33:00,799 --> 01:32:58,979
you know the thinking how do we know

1646
01:33:03,229 --> 01:33:00,809
what they're thinking is we have no idea

1647
01:33:05,779 --> 01:33:03,239
how they think we couldn't even imagine

1648
01:33:07,429 --> 01:33:05,789
it if wherever they're from again they

1649
01:33:10,849 --> 01:33:07,439
may not be extraterrestrial I don't know

1650
01:33:14,479 --> 01:33:10,859
what it is but anyway I'm opening the

1651
01:33:17,059 --> 01:33:14,489
line up and be respectful it's eight

1652
01:33:19,759 --> 01:33:17,069
five five four seven two five four eight

1653
01:33:23,389 --> 01:33:19,769
three the line is open if anyone wants

1654
01:33:32,179 --> 01:33:23,399
to call in I was seeing some chats that

1655
01:33:34,039 --> 01:33:32,189
were someone I'm reading this right off

1656
01:33:36,649 --> 01:33:34,049
the cuff here so I don't know what is

1657
01:33:41,180 --> 01:33:36,659
exactly saying it says please ask him

1658
01:33:45,760 --> 01:33:41,190
if he believes panda bears what oh never

1659
01:33:48,439 --> 01:33:45,770
mind do you believe in panda bear

1660
01:33:50,990 --> 01:33:48,449
scientists defined their existence for

1661
01:33:55,310 --> 01:33:51,000
75 years yet they are real I think he's

1662
01:33:56,959 --> 01:33:55,320
trying to make a point so now why if I

1663
01:34:01,010 --> 01:33:56,969
believe in panda bears why should I

1664
01:34:03,860 --> 01:34:01,020
believe in UFOs it's just I mean ICC was

1665
01:34:05,780 --> 01:34:03,870
I just picked I just picked a one to

1666
01:34:08,060 --> 01:34:05,790
read right off the bat that was

1667
01:34:10,550 --> 01:34:08,070
addressed to me and basically saying

1668
01:34:13,760 --> 01:34:10,560
that there was a denial for 75 years and

1669
01:34:14,890 --> 01:34:13,770
they did exist after all but anyway the

1670
01:34:18,950 --> 01:34:14,900
line is open

1671
01:34:21,379 --> 01:34:18,960
again that number is is eight five five

1672
01:34:25,910 --> 01:34:21,389
four seven two five four eight three and

1673
01:34:29,300 --> 01:34:25,920
no people want to call and talk and so

1674
01:34:31,640 --> 01:34:29,310
that line is open and we actually have I

1675
01:34:34,070 --> 01:34:31,650
don't know six lines anyone could call

1676
01:34:35,419 --> 01:34:34,080
in last week the phone was ringing off

1677
01:34:38,510 --> 01:34:35,429
the hook we had a lot of calls but you

1678
01:34:39,910 --> 01:34:38,520
never know sometimes we will not get any

1679
01:34:43,280 --> 01:34:39,920
calls

1680
01:34:46,790 --> 01:34:43,290
so as other other people that share your

1681
01:34:48,740 --> 01:34:46,800
belief I get do we call it a belief is

1682
01:34:52,490 --> 01:34:48,750
that what you call it yeah I mean I

1683
01:34:54,830 --> 01:34:52,500
think I'm following in the in the

1684
01:34:57,590 --> 01:34:54,840
footsteps of Jaco valet I mean we don't

1685
01:35:03,100 --> 01:34:57,600
totally agree on everything but what

1686
01:35:06,379 --> 01:35:03,110
filet flagged in his seminal book

1687
01:35:09,800 --> 01:35:06,389
passport - magana and this is a point

1688
01:35:15,229 --> 01:35:09,810
that I I could have made much earlier

1689
01:35:18,770 --> 01:35:15,239
that the UFOs seem to reflect the

1690
01:35:22,390 --> 01:35:18,780
technology of the society that observes

1691
01:35:27,169 --> 01:35:22,400
them which will make excellent sense if

1692
01:35:30,830 --> 01:35:27,179
they're a human phenomenon no sense if

1693
01:35:32,479 --> 01:35:30,840
they're visitors from aus elsewhere have

1694
01:35:37,729 --> 01:35:32,489
any of your guests talk of the talked

1695
01:35:40,610 --> 01:35:37,739
about the the airship of 1897 yes with

1696
01:35:43,370 --> 01:35:40,620
lights coming down and all that yes and

1697
01:35:47,020 --> 01:35:43,380
people actually making contact with the

1698
01:35:49,189 --> 01:35:47,030
pilots of the airship only these are not

1699
01:35:52,189 --> 01:35:49,199
intergalactic aliens

1700
01:35:55,910 --> 01:35:52,199
but American inventor is often from New

1701
01:35:59,569 --> 01:35:55,920
York State who have an odd tendency to

1702
01:36:04,459 --> 01:35:59,579
be named Wilson now what were these

1703
01:36:09,979 --> 01:36:04,469
people seeing what did it what what was

1704
01:36:13,339 --> 01:36:09,989
the experience when they met the pilots

1705
01:36:18,319 --> 01:36:13,349
because just like a falling the the the

1706
01:36:20,629 --> 01:36:18,329
falling Sun at Fatima these are things

1707
01:36:26,140 --> 01:36:20,639
that there's no way they could have

1708
01:36:29,959 --> 01:36:26,150
existed would you agree with that well

1709
01:36:32,029 --> 01:36:29,969
you know I I could I could agree that

1710
01:36:35,000 --> 01:36:32,039
there's no technology that we had at

1711
01:36:38,089 --> 01:36:35,010
that time but I'm not saying I can agree

1712
01:36:41,000 --> 01:36:38,099
you know I mean if we are being visited

1713
01:36:45,049 --> 01:36:41,010
by whoever why is why would it be just

1714
01:36:47,449 --> 01:36:45,059
you know 1947 and I did see in your book

1715
01:36:50,870 --> 01:36:47,459
that you did have some earlier you know

1716
01:36:54,739 --> 01:36:50,880
very early accounts of your explanation

1717
01:36:58,580 --> 01:36:54,749
of I guess you know people manifesting

1718
01:37:02,660 --> 01:36:58,590
back in the 1680s in in Africa and other

1719
01:37:05,779 --> 01:37:02,670
places like that what you what the

1720
01:37:10,250 --> 01:37:05,789
people in 1897 were describing were

1721
01:37:14,479 --> 01:37:10,260
craft that were just a step ahead of the

1722
01:37:17,509 --> 01:37:14,489
technology of 1897 that there was sort

1723
01:37:22,339 --> 01:37:17,519
of like the sort of like super

1724
01:37:24,290 --> 01:37:22,349
dirigibles mm-hmm yeah and yet they and

1725
01:37:27,140 --> 01:37:24,300
yet they were having as far as we can

1726
01:37:29,719 --> 01:37:27,150
tell real experiences there Jerry Clark

1727
01:37:31,790 --> 01:37:29,729
did had a really fascinating piece I

1728
01:37:36,250 --> 01:37:31,800
think was in the International UFO

1729
01:37:44,299 --> 01:37:36,260
reporter about a rabbi in Beaumont Texas

1730
01:37:47,569 --> 01:37:44,309
who saw a landed the airship landed met

1731
01:37:51,319 --> 01:37:47,579
the in the pilot and shook hands with

1732
01:37:54,489 --> 01:37:51,329
him and I found myself asking why would

1733
01:37:57,259 --> 01:37:54,499
a rabbi be going out to a farm to

1734
01:38:00,500 --> 01:37:57,269
interview the pilot of an airship and I

1735
01:38:02,089 --> 01:38:00,510
could only give I mean Jerry proved

1736
01:38:02,810 --> 01:38:02,099
quite conclusively I think that this

1737
01:38:05,080 --> 01:38:02,820
rabbi

1738
01:38:08,540 --> 01:38:05,090
surely existed nobody made him up

1739
01:38:10,580 --> 01:38:08,550
although I don't know what his story the

1740
01:38:16,400 --> 01:38:10,590
story that he himself told actor

1741
01:38:18,980 --> 01:38:16,410
actually was but that the way I

1742
01:38:22,550 --> 01:38:18,990
understood it is that he was from

1743
01:38:25,700 --> 01:38:22,560
Germany in boma a rabbi in Beaumont

1744
01:38:31,450 --> 01:38:25,710
Texas in the 1890s would have been

1745
01:38:37,280 --> 01:38:31,460
doubly alien as a Jew and as a foreigner

1746
01:38:41,420 --> 01:38:37,290
but by shaking hands with the pilot of

1747
01:38:46,460 --> 01:38:41,430
the airship he became part of the

1748
01:38:49,730 --> 01:38:46,470
American story of invention and

1749
01:38:51,920 --> 01:38:49,740
innovation which reached what we talk

1750
01:38:53,570 --> 01:38:51,930
where this brings us back to what we

1751
01:38:57,470 --> 01:38:53,580
talked about right in the break

1752
01:39:00,470 --> 01:38:57,480
beforehand that reached one of its high

1753
01:39:04,760 --> 01:39:00,480
points not far from where I live in

1754
01:39:07,340 --> 01:39:04,770
Kitty Hawk North Carolina a cup a couple

1755
01:39:11,270 --> 01:39:07,350
of decades later with the Wright

1756
01:39:16,520 --> 01:39:11,280
brothers okay so I think we're dealing

1757
01:39:20,750 --> 01:39:16,530
with stories that have that double that

1758
01:39:29,420 --> 01:39:20,760
double aspect of being a creation called

1759
01:39:33,640 --> 01:39:29,430
a legendary creation of the time and at

1760
01:39:38,210 --> 01:39:33,650
the same time come across as authentic

1761
01:39:42,920 --> 01:39:38,220
experiences of the people who encounter

1762
01:39:46,510 --> 01:39:42,930
them and Jacque tried to maintain this

1763
01:39:50,890 --> 01:39:46,520
by supposing there was some sort of

1764
01:39:54,200 --> 01:39:50,900
other world not outer space but that

1765
01:40:00,490 --> 01:39:54,210
intersected with ours and that mirrored

1766
01:40:04,160 --> 01:40:00,500
ours I wouldn't go for a more strictly

1767
01:40:06,650 --> 01:40:04,170
psychological explanation that this is

1768
01:40:14,350 --> 01:40:06,660
something that comes from inside us and

1769
01:40:20,760 --> 01:40:14,360
the nature of the experience has

1770
01:40:24,580 --> 01:40:20,770
a quality that I don't fully understand

1771
01:40:27,910 --> 01:40:24,590
but there's no question that I that

1772
01:40:29,919 --> 01:40:27,920
Jacques was one of the pioneers if you

1773
01:40:32,740 --> 01:40:29,929
wanted to draw a line from where I've

1774
01:40:36,939 --> 01:40:32,750
been it would start with Carl Jung and

1775
01:40:40,149 --> 01:40:36,949
run through Jacques Vallee while those

1776
01:40:42,370 --> 01:40:40,159
are certainly two pretty big names we

1777
01:40:45,520 --> 01:40:42,380
have Chris on the line from Houston

1778
01:40:48,399 --> 01:40:45,530
welcome to the show Chris hi Martin I've

1779
01:40:50,020 --> 01:40:48,409
called before I'm one of the people it's

1780
01:40:55,390 --> 01:40:50,030
I don't know if angry is the word but

1781
01:40:59,379 --> 01:40:55,400
irritated that you're just young alright

1782
01:41:01,810 --> 01:40:59,389
so um I I think what I'm hearing I

1783
01:41:04,870 --> 01:41:01,820
understand completely what you're saying

1784
01:41:07,149 --> 01:41:04,880
learn about your reservations about this

1785
01:41:11,290 --> 01:41:07,159
reasoning I don't understand his

1786
01:41:13,300 --> 01:41:11,300
reasoning your reasoning sir and I look

1787
01:41:16,200 --> 01:41:13,310
it seems to me that it's almost like a

1788
01:41:19,750 --> 01:41:16,210
form of what's it called pareidolia

1789
01:41:23,350 --> 01:41:19,760
where you see faces in clouds or like a

1790
01:41:25,359 --> 01:41:23,360
cargo cult or you you know you might you

1791
01:41:28,209 --> 01:41:25,369
mentioned the panda thing but you know

1792
01:41:31,180 --> 01:41:28,219
people seeing throughout history and in

1793
01:41:34,780 --> 01:41:31,190
anthropological temps seeing creatures

1794
01:41:36,879 --> 01:41:34,790
that they described as monsters who

1795
01:41:38,709 --> 01:41:36,889
turned that turned out to be ordinary

1796
01:41:39,870 --> 01:41:38,719
creatures in the wild they just had

1797
01:41:44,229 --> 01:41:39,880
never seen before

1798
01:41:46,930 --> 01:41:44,239
so all of this seems to be putting the

1799
01:41:49,229 --> 01:41:46,940
need for an explanation ahead of the

1800
01:41:55,419 --> 01:41:49,239
observation of the experience and

1801
01:42:00,780 --> 01:41:55,429
letting a intellectualized description

1802
01:42:03,580 --> 01:42:00,790
of a psychological effect drive all

1803
01:42:05,800 --> 01:42:03,590
interpretations of data and it seems

1804
01:42:10,510 --> 01:42:05,810
backwards to logic and backwards to have

1805
01:42:12,820 --> 01:42:10,520
an analysis and observation I did miss

1806
01:42:15,100 --> 01:42:12,830
the first pathless show so I don't know

1807
01:42:17,919 --> 01:42:15,110
if you discussed the tic-tacs

1808
01:42:19,479 --> 01:42:17,929
with him yeah but I would if you haven't

1809
01:42:22,270 --> 01:42:19,489
or even if you have you might just

1810
01:42:24,010 --> 01:42:22,280
revisit that the other and then I have

1811
01:42:25,570 --> 01:42:24,020
because I've described to you before my

1812
01:42:26,730 --> 01:42:25,580
own sightings I've had several sightings

1813
01:42:32,610 --> 01:42:26,740
and

1814
01:42:35,460 --> 01:42:32,620
that I've seen or a religious experience

1815
01:42:37,320 --> 01:42:35,470
or a psychological manifestation I'm

1816
01:42:39,870 --> 01:42:37,330
sorry that's just bonkers and you have

1817
01:42:42,510 --> 01:42:39,880
no evidence for that but your

1818
01:42:49,020 --> 01:42:42,520
explanations are more far-fetched than

1819
01:42:57,270 --> 01:42:49,030
the observations of these craft yeah and

1820
01:43:02,250 --> 01:42:57,280
I do you a graded justice by telling you

1821
01:43:05,850 --> 01:43:02,260
that you didn't see what you thought you

1822
01:43:09,200 --> 01:43:05,860
saw you don't have a right to tell me

1823
01:43:11,940 --> 01:43:09,210
that I know obligation to believe it I

1824
01:43:14,010 --> 01:43:11,950
do have a right it's an unprofessional

1825
01:43:16,170 --> 01:43:14,020
and unethical for you to say that to me

1826
01:43:17,970 --> 01:43:16,180
I don't think so I absolutely do not

1827
01:43:19,680 --> 01:43:17,980
believe it I absolutely trust my

1828
01:43:22,410 --> 01:43:19,690
experience you're killing everyone who's

1829
01:43:24,600 --> 01:43:22,420
had a not one of these experiences that

1830
01:43:26,160 --> 01:43:24,610
they must not trust their judgment and

1831
01:43:30,060 --> 01:43:26,170
their observation and I absolutely

1832
01:43:33,660 --> 01:43:30,070
reject that categorically yes and I can

1833
01:43:35,370 --> 01:43:33,670
see why you do okay if you think of

1834
01:43:38,490 --> 01:43:35,380
those I'm gonna hang up and take it from

1835
01:43:41,510 --> 01:43:38,500
there oh all right

1836
01:43:47,040 --> 01:43:41,520
hey thanks thanks for the call Chris

1837
01:43:53,130 --> 01:43:47,050
okay anything you'd like to add we have

1838
01:43:57,510 --> 01:43:53,140
another call you know yeah that I think

1839
01:44:01,470 --> 01:43:57,520
Chris has every right to be angry at

1840
01:44:06,570 --> 01:44:01,480
what I'm saying just as I've had every

1841
01:44:09,540 --> 01:44:06,580
right to say it I think back to one

1842
01:44:12,900 --> 01:44:09,550
thing that one person who influenced me

1843
01:44:16,800 --> 01:44:12,910
a great deal who I mentioned in my book

1844
01:44:23,760 --> 01:44:16,810
who was a librarian in Western North

1845
01:44:26,400 --> 01:44:23,770
Carolina and she told me about the UFO

1846
01:44:29,880 --> 01:44:26,410
aliens that she saw through the windows

1847
01:44:34,590 --> 01:44:29,890
of her her house standing on her lawn

1848
01:44:39,609 --> 01:44:34,600
and she said to me I know they weren't

1849
01:44:43,930 --> 01:44:39,619
really there but I did see them

1850
01:44:50,470 --> 01:44:43,940
I believe both parts of her statement

1851
01:44:57,280 --> 01:44:50,480
and my project is to understand how both

1852
01:45:03,490 --> 01:44:57,290
parts can be true Chris let us work

1853
01:45:10,959 --> 01:45:03,500
together to try to explore what it may

1854
01:45:14,609 --> 01:45:10,969
have meant to you what you saw all right

1855
01:45:18,760 --> 01:45:14,619
he's up he's no longer on the line but

1856
01:45:26,439 --> 01:45:18,770
all right well we have another phone

1857
01:45:27,580 --> 01:45:26,449
call coming in too but we have I don't

1858
01:45:30,100 --> 01:45:27,590
know what your real name is what's your

1859
01:45:34,240 --> 01:45:30,110
real first name and I know you're not

1860
01:45:38,379 --> 01:45:34,250
calling from zetas Reticuli we have here

1861
01:45:40,320 --> 01:45:38,389
ones over here Greg hi welcome to the

1862
01:45:44,589 --> 01:45:40,330
show you have a question for our guest

1863
01:45:47,770 --> 01:45:44,599
yeah but I'm like a statement I just

1864
01:45:50,320 --> 01:45:47,780
know you have a career in theology I

1865
01:45:52,390 --> 01:45:50,330
mean it's all theology so it looks to me

1866
01:45:55,359 --> 01:45:52,400
like you only see theology like current

1867
01:45:57,550 --> 01:45:55,369
since John Lennon and the nakedness they

1868
01:46:01,470 --> 01:45:57,560
kind of a stretch to get that into it

1869
01:46:04,330 --> 01:46:01,480
the our theological area but here we go

1870
01:46:06,160 --> 01:46:04,340
yeah you know they're saying that when

1871
01:46:10,540 --> 01:46:06,170
the only tool you have is a Hammer Every

1872
01:46:13,290 --> 01:46:10,550
Problem looks like that and that's what

1873
01:46:15,010 --> 01:46:13,300
it appears to me I'll put it that way

1874
01:46:18,189 --> 01:46:15,020
that's possible

1875
01:46:23,370 --> 01:46:18,199
I'm gonna say let's try using that

1876
01:46:27,430 --> 01:46:23,380
hammer and act as if UFOs are a nail and

1877
01:46:29,560 --> 01:46:27,440
see what we come up with now I hope you

1878
01:46:31,570 --> 01:46:29,570
will read my book I don't necessarily

1879
01:46:34,419 --> 01:46:31,580
say I hope you'll buy it although

1880
01:46:36,459 --> 01:46:34,429
obviously I do but there are ways to

1881
01:46:38,470 --> 01:46:36,469
read books without buying them

1882
01:46:42,250 --> 01:46:38,480
I think the libraries are going to open

1883
01:46:45,220 --> 01:46:42,260
sooner or later and I hope you will read

1884
01:46:48,729 --> 01:46:45,230
it and see whether you think that my

1885
01:46:49,510 --> 01:46:48,739
hammer has worked fairly well on the

1886
01:46:53,320 --> 01:46:49,520
nails

1887
01:46:56,340 --> 01:46:53,330
have you ever Leon on a belief system

1888
01:46:59,020 --> 01:46:56,350
though and a lot of us are looking at

1889
01:47:01,720 --> 01:46:59,030
nuts and bolts like for instance the

1890
01:47:03,040 --> 01:47:01,730
radar on those ships you're not going to

1891
01:47:05,620 --> 01:47:03,050
pull that stuff and that was the

1892
01:47:07,360 --> 01:47:05,630
brand-new stuff on the f-18 these

1893
01:47:08,980 --> 01:47:07,370
weren't all that eighteens this was the

1894
01:47:12,610 --> 01:47:08,990
new stuff they're right out of the box

1895
01:47:15,060 --> 01:47:12,620
and they don't just show nothing and

1896
01:47:17,470 --> 01:47:15,070
when you go this ship and the planes

1897
01:47:19,780 --> 01:47:17,480
showing something that the pilots can

1898
01:47:24,550 --> 01:47:19,790
see and they're getting it on infrared

1899
01:47:27,880 --> 01:47:24,560
it's not somebody's imagination and yet

1900
01:47:29,610 --> 01:47:27,890
radar has been fooled many times do you

1901
01:47:32,290 --> 01:47:29,620
have what's called the anomalous

1902
01:47:34,720 --> 01:47:32,300
propagation well that's that's true

1903
01:47:37,330 --> 01:47:34,730
because like mostly all the radar and

1904
01:47:39,520 --> 01:47:37,340
like an ocular radar you have birds

1905
01:47:43,090 --> 01:47:39,530
flying around that will do it but

1906
01:47:45,730 --> 01:47:43,100
weather Doppler radar that is but I

1907
01:47:48,400 --> 01:47:45,740
think there's a lot going on here that

1908
01:47:50,620 --> 01:47:48,410
you're just not looking at because it's

1909
01:47:54,370 --> 01:47:50,630
not what you particularly want to look

1910
01:47:57,520 --> 01:47:54,380
at it's my opinion yeah and that that's

1911
01:48:00,010 --> 01:47:57,530
a legitimate criticism but I would ask

1912
01:48:02,560 --> 01:48:00,020
are there are there things that the

1913
01:48:06,550 --> 01:48:02,570
people who advocate for the et

1914
01:48:09,490 --> 01:48:06,560
hypothesis are not looking at such as

1915
01:48:12,910 --> 01:48:09,500
well descriptions of the of the

1916
01:48:15,810 --> 01:48:12,920
occupants tend to be conditioned by what

1917
01:48:18,910 --> 01:48:15,820
the people what people expect to see

1918
01:48:21,780 --> 01:48:18,920
well a lot of people are saying about

1919
01:48:24,010 --> 01:48:21,790
with the streamers book but that

1920
01:48:27,010 --> 01:48:24,020
description has been around long before

1921
01:48:27,580 --> 01:48:27,020
that in the 1980s version of Whitley

1922
01:48:30,040 --> 01:48:27,590
Strieber

1923
01:48:31,870 --> 01:48:30,050
who was pretty sharp and he did a lot of

1924
01:48:34,390 --> 01:48:31,880
research into what things that could

1925
01:48:36,970 --> 01:48:34,400
possibly be besides what he thought it

1926
01:48:38,650 --> 01:48:36,980
was and he went a long way before he

1927
01:48:43,510 --> 01:48:38,660
even decided these prophets what that

1928
01:48:45,700 --> 01:48:43,520
was witnessed a lot of searching yes the

1929
01:48:48,490 --> 01:48:45,710
whitley strieber is an extraordinarily

1930
01:48:52,540 --> 01:48:48,500
intelligent and above all an

1931
01:48:55,260 --> 01:48:52,550
extraordinarily self-aware man and it's

1932
01:48:58,750 --> 01:48:55,270
worth noting that he never said anywhere

1933
01:49:01,570 --> 01:48:58,760
that he was being visited by aliens he

1934
01:49:03,670 --> 01:49:01,580
just called them the visitors that's

1935
01:49:06,100 --> 01:49:03,680
true but it could be interdimensional

1936
01:49:07,209 --> 01:49:06,110
that's a popular one it could be

1937
01:49:12,790 --> 01:49:07,219
something we don't even under

1938
01:49:18,819 --> 01:49:12,800
Stan it's possible but then then they it

1939
01:49:20,620 --> 01:49:18,829
stops when you say that it loses its

1940
01:49:23,379 --> 01:49:20,630
power as an explanation

1941
01:49:26,910 --> 01:49:23,389
now what streamers image I talk a lot

1942
01:49:29,620 --> 01:49:26,920
about streamer in my book and streamer

1943
01:49:35,200 --> 01:49:29,630
speaks of them as having the huge

1944
01:49:37,719 --> 01:49:35,210
staring eyes of the old gods and I think

1945
01:49:39,969 --> 01:49:37,729
he's right on target there and this

1946
01:49:42,640 --> 01:49:39,979
takes it back to me I'm not exactly a

1947
01:49:44,469 --> 01:49:42,650
student of the all a scholar of theology

1948
01:49:47,739 --> 01:49:44,479
but of religion it's not quite the same

1949
01:49:52,029 --> 01:49:47,749
thing but yeah I do look for religious

1950
01:49:55,719 --> 01:49:52,039
phenomena and streamer saw what he was

1951
01:49:58,509 --> 01:49:55,729
experiencing as a religious phenomenon

1952
01:50:00,279 --> 01:49:58,519
I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to cut

1953
01:50:02,680 --> 01:50:00,289
the call I'm sorry we have two other

1954
01:50:05,290 --> 01:50:02,690
people waiting but thanks thanks very

1955
01:50:07,600 --> 01:50:05,300
much thanks all right

1956
01:50:11,049 --> 01:50:07,610
just real quickly one thing I thought of

1957
01:50:16,419 --> 01:50:11,059
Travis Walton describes the same type of

1958
01:50:17,770 --> 01:50:16,429
eyes 1975 so I don't know that's just

1959
01:50:20,500 --> 01:50:17,780
one other thought but I want to catch

1960
01:50:22,810 --> 01:50:20,510
this call we have two more callers we

1961
01:50:26,080 --> 01:50:22,820
have Ward from Fort Myers welcome to the

1962
01:50:31,390 --> 01:50:26,090
show we have to make a quick Ward here

1963
01:50:33,189 --> 01:50:31,400
on the big cloud you like I just woke up

1964
01:50:35,379 --> 01:50:33,199
towards the end of your show but I

1965
01:50:48,549 --> 01:50:35,389
thought I heard the gentleman saying

1966
01:50:55,540 --> 01:50:48,559
that imagination that we create these

1967
01:50:58,810 --> 01:50:55,550
things off no you're right you're right

1968
01:51:01,959 --> 01:50:58,820
on target you're right on target only

1969
01:51:03,189 --> 01:51:01,969
strip that of any disparaging

1970
01:51:05,560 --> 01:51:03,199
connotations

1971
01:51:09,310 --> 01:51:05,570
they say there's something that comes

1972
01:51:12,689 --> 01:51:09,320
from inside us that is real from within

1973
01:51:17,709 --> 01:51:12,699
from within us

1974
01:51:19,050 --> 01:51:17,719
well I can disagree you had to respect a

1975
01:51:23,640 --> 01:51:19,060
good

1976
01:51:25,890 --> 01:51:23,650
I have videos and film about your

1977
01:51:27,930 --> 01:51:25,900
answers I'm not talking about oh you

1978
01:51:31,860 --> 01:51:27,940
can't tell what it is or whatever it is

1979
01:51:35,760 --> 01:51:31,870
they've left me notes and these things

1980
01:51:38,190 --> 01:51:35,770
are real entities and they're not as a

1981
01:51:41,010 --> 01:51:38,200
figment of my imagination for the first

1982
01:51:42,450 --> 01:51:41,020
story I thought I was having poltergeist

1983
01:51:45,420 --> 01:51:42,460
activity there's a lot of hold the dry

1984
01:51:47,940 --> 01:51:45,430
stuff going on in my home I saw that

1985
01:51:50,610 --> 01:51:47,950
Ghost and then I found out on my own

1986
01:51:52,830 --> 01:51:50,620
with my videos that it wouldn't go so it

1987
01:51:54,360 --> 01:51:52,840
was everyone whatever you are Chrome I

1988
01:51:55,080 --> 01:51:54,370
know where the forum I can't tell you

1989
01:51:59,160 --> 01:51:55,090
myself

1990
01:52:02,520 --> 01:51:59,170
right not from my imagination also not

1991
01:52:05,910 --> 01:52:02,530
on a grassy another season and the

1992
01:52:08,730 --> 01:52:05,920
bitter season so it's pretty hard not to

1993
01:52:11,880 --> 01:52:08,740
sometime three different people seeing

1994
01:52:13,800 --> 01:52:11,890
things at three sometimes and not and

1995
01:52:17,430 --> 01:52:13,810
this I started happening in 2012

1996
01:52:20,160 --> 01:52:17,440
my mother is 19 and my brother is 26 and

1997
01:52:23,010 --> 01:52:20,170
none of us the first 2012 had ever seen

1998
01:52:27,870 --> 01:52:23,020
any of this kind of stuff so you really

1999
01:52:34,560 --> 01:52:27,880
are better when you're 2012 that all of

2000
01:52:36,420 --> 01:52:34,570
us can start imagining it manifest yeah

2001
01:52:38,370 --> 01:52:36,430
I mean are you describe thinking of

2002
01:52:41,850 --> 01:52:38,380
people like the clock beings like the

2003
01:52:45,270 --> 01:52:41,860
classic Grey's that you saw actually I

2004
01:52:50,490 --> 01:52:45,280
only came to come upon I have all

2005
01:52:51,960 --> 01:52:50,500
different types all the precise word I'm

2006
01:52:53,460 --> 01:52:51,970
sorry I'm gonna have to cut this short

2007
01:52:57,180 --> 01:52:53,470
we're right at the end of the show here

2008
01:53:00,990 --> 01:52:57,190
I gotta take a call real quickly thank

2009
01:53:03,600 --> 01:53:01,000
you very much all right just uh we have

2010
01:53:06,420 --> 01:53:03,610
Steve I think you've called before from

2011
01:53:10,980 --> 01:53:06,430
Washington Steve we only got a minute

2012
01:53:14,330 --> 01:53:10,990
and a half okay I can be quickly I can

2013
01:53:16,710 --> 01:53:14,340
let it go no no go ahead

2014
01:53:17,640 --> 01:53:16,720
are you ready for me they're up you're

2015
01:53:21,390 --> 01:53:17,650
up yep

2016
01:53:24,600 --> 01:53:21,400
oh okay my question is is there any

2017
01:53:27,270 --> 01:53:24,610
legitimate purpose to to this you you

2018
01:53:29,730 --> 01:53:27,280
say that these things are a delusion

2019
01:53:31,560 --> 01:53:29,740
closer to a delusion I just want to know

2020
01:53:33,150 --> 01:53:31,570
do you see these as having some

2021
01:53:38,890 --> 01:53:33,160
legitimate purpose

2022
01:53:42,960 --> 01:53:38,900
absolutely absolutely it seems to me

2023
01:53:47,640 --> 01:53:42,970
that most basically what these are is

2024
01:53:51,310 --> 01:53:47,650
our way of dealing with our mortality

2025
01:53:56,860 --> 01:53:51,320
dust thou art and to dust shalt thou

2026
01:54:02,050 --> 01:53:56,870
return I would not use the word delusion

2027
01:54:06,930 --> 01:54:02,060
about them they're real within a psychic

2028
01:54:10,750 --> 01:54:06,940
sense okay so they serve a purpose yes

2029
01:54:13,630 --> 01:54:10,760
yes that's an twist I wish we had more

2030
01:54:16,380 --> 01:54:13,640
time to discuss that thanks for the call

2031
01:54:18,760 --> 01:54:16,390
Steve thank you sir

2032
01:54:21,190 --> 01:54:18,770
yeah I wish we had more time to discuss

2033
01:54:25,750 --> 01:54:21,200
that but we are at the end of the show

2034
01:54:28,960 --> 01:54:25,760
so real quickly again the title of your

2035
01:54:31,390 --> 01:54:28,970
book intimate alien the hidden story of

2036
01:54:35,230 --> 01:54:31,400
the UFO Wow that's all I got to say as

2037
01:54:35,950 --> 01:54:35,240
well thanks so much David and and we'll

2038
01:54:38,980 --> 01:54:35,960
talk soon

2039
01:54:41,770 --> 01:54:38,990
you take thank you so much for having me

2040
01:54:46,860 --> 01:54:41,780
all right okay all right everyone so

2041
01:54:50,710 --> 01:54:46,870
that's that's it for the show next week

2042
01:54:52,660 --> 01:54:50,720
we have Chris styles from shag harbour

2043
01:54:54,010 --> 01:54:52,670
he was the lead investigator in shag

2044
01:54:57,750 --> 01:54:54,020
harbour he's going to be on next week